Post #13,844 and #13,897 are two different arguments. In post #13,844 you are discussing traducianism/creationism, or whether souls are created or propagated. In this post you argued that souls are propagated-not created. In post #13,897 you are dealing with the trichotomy/dichotomy argument, which deals with whether man has a “body, soul and spirit” or just a “body and soul”. I’m not going to discuss the trichotomy/dichotomy views simply because I don’t think there is enough evidence to discuss the point either way. However, one should be able to understand very clearly that the traducianism/creationism and the trichotomy/dichotomy arguments are two different and completely separate issues.
My post was in regards to your traducianism/creationism argument in post #13,844. You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory. Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored. God breathed into Adam his soul, meaning that Adam soul must have existed before Adam existed. Christ’s soul existed prior to His birth-it must have since there are multiple examples in the Old Testament of Christ’s appearances (such as Melchizedek).
Why this is such an important issue is that you would have us believe that the creator of souls is man. One would hope they would see the error of this since God created ALL things. Man does not create anything-through propagation or otherwise.
I am not a student of Origen, but a reading of what he taught states that he “espoused a Platonic view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God.” Quite frankly, this sounds like a variation of the Catholic view of purgatory. And, not to offend, but isn’t the Orthodox view one of man getting more and more like Christ as he sheds off the things of this world? This sound far more in keeping with Origen’s view than us “westerners”.
I am looking at the title and it clearly says How are Human Souls Created. It doesn't say "Propagated," HD, does it? Just wanted to make sure we are reading the same words. In this post you argued that souls are propagated-not created...My post was in regards to your traducianism/creationism argument in post #13,844. You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory
My reply to your post says "The soul doesn't propagate; the soul is created at the moment of conception." (13,921). I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.
More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that – regardless which theory is correct – both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?
Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body — which references you simply choose to ignore.
Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not. It simply states what we believe, namely that God gives us the soul and that, after death, the sould goes back to Him.
Jesus' soul was created at Incarnation.
I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far. Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.
Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity. Sadly, some early Church Fathers (i.e. +Gregory of Nyssa, a one time student of Origen) subscribed to the universal salvation theory.
The Church never considered Hell "temporary." the bible even states that God prepared a lake of eternal fire for the devil and his angles (cf Mat 25:41). (The idea of purgatory doe snot include Satan and his demons. But the idea of an interim state of the soul is based on the particular (immediate) judgment after death (cf Heb 9:27) which is not the Final Judgment.
No offense taken. The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.
*the Greek text is actually in future tense