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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
No, of course not. "Fullness in Christ" is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. That is to human capacity. No essence is transferred or shared

I don't know where you are getting the Spirit in Col 2:9-10, and yes the essence is implied by fullness of deity in flesh and fullness of Christ in us. At least that's how it comes across.

I'm not aware of any credible dispute as to the authorship of these books

You need to read more about the Bible.

I think "image" has survived as a good description here. An "image" is a visible perception. "God" is not normally visible, but in Christ He is. That's all he meant

But, see, we are an "image" of God (whose "likeness" we lost). That does not make us divine.

"Nature" is a perfectly good translation (or use) of "morphe" (Strong's 3444)

I disagree. Morphe is the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; external appearance. That is not our nature or essence (Gr. ousia)

That's because, first one must assert that Paul was not a Christian, that he was not born again

Paul never said he was a Christian. I have no doubt that when he was converted, whether the way he claims or not — it doesn't matter, he did not think he was "switching" to a new religion. He considered himself a Jew, and his faith, whether with or without Christ was always Jewish. The fact that he treated Gentiles as 'second class citizens" as far as Mosaic Law was concerned, circumcision and kosher habits does not mean he considered the faith to something new and not Jewish.

Christianity began to separate from Judaism when its members no longer constituted mostly Jews, but mostly Gentiles, towards the end of the 1st century, but not during Paul's lifetime. By the end of the 1st century, Christianity was de facto as well as de jure (Jamnia) a different religion.

The disciples HAD no worries, comparatively, but when Jesus went to Gethsemane, we saw His human nature

Christ is a perfect fusion but not confusion of two perfect nature's, one divine, the other human. What that means is that their relationship is in perfect harmony. Christ may have felt human needs and desires but He never did anything to counter His divine nature. The two were are in perfect harmony. Otherwise, Christ would not be perfect.

So, no, at not time was Christ not aware of His human or divine nature. If by "His human nature" you mean doubt, that would be an indication that He was not perfect and did not believe in Himself, but fell for the temptation of doubt.

13,723 posted on 04/29/2007 9:24:23 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Great post, and I thank you for sharing it with me, kosta50.

Christ is a perfect fusion but not confusion of two perfect nature's, one divine, the other human. What that means is that their relationship is in perfect harmony. Christ may have felt human needs and desires but He never did anything to counter His divine nature. The two were are in perfect harmony. Otherwise, Christ would not be perfect.

I personally still don't have the capacity to discuss this awesome subject well, but I have kept a certain CD in my stereo for going on two weeks now so that it plays in the rotation while I'm spring cleaning - Michael Card and John Michael Talbot, Brother to Brother. Their song The Final Word, encapsulates my understanding of Christ as God Incarnate:

You and me we use so very many clumsy words
The noise of what we often say is not worth being heard
When the Father's wisdom wanted to communicate His love
He spoke it in one final perfect Word

He spoke the Incarnation and so was born the Son
His final word was Jesus, He needed no other one
Spoke flesh and blood so He could bleed and make a way divine
And so was born the baby who would die to make it mine
And so the Light became alive and manna became man
Eternity stepped into time so we could understand
He spoke the Incarnation and so was born the Son
His final word was Jesus, He needed no other one
Spoke flesh and blood so He could bleed and make a way divine
And so was born the baby who would die to make it mine

You and me we use so very many clumsy words
The noise of what we often say is not worth being heard
When the Father's wisdom wanted to communicate His love
He spoke it in one final perfect Word.
~Michael Card

13,727 posted on 04/29/2007 10:15:49 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
Paul never said he was a Christian. I have no doubt that when he was converted, whether the way he claims or not — it doesn't matter, he did not think he was "switching" to a new religion. He considered himself a Jew, and his faith, whether with or without Christ was always Jewish. The fact that he treated Gentiles as 'second class citizens" as far as Mosaic Law was concerned, circumcision and kosher habits does not mean he considered the faith to something new and not Jewish.

After conversion, Paul always said he was a follower of Christ, what we call today a "Christian". My view is that real NT Christianity is the fulfillment of RIGHTEOUS OT Judaism, as opposed to common OT Judaism at the time. Paul was not practicing righteous OT Judaism just prior to conversion, so I DO think he saw his new faith as a significant change. However, I think he also must have understood the point I'm making here. The new illuminates the old and completes it. ... So, whatever words he used, it is clear that Paul considered himself what we would call a Christian, as opposed to what we would call a Jew.

FK: "The disciples HAD no worries, comparatively, but when Jesus went to Gethsemane, we saw His human nature."

Christ is a perfect fusion but not confusion of two perfect nature's, one divine, the other human. What that means is that their relationship is in perfect harmony. Christ may have felt human needs and desires but He never did anything to counter His divine nature. The two were are in perfect harmony. Otherwise, Christ would not be perfect.

I fully agree and I think you said it very well. :) I still think of the "Nestorian controversy" that was earlier on this thread. So, I thought I would just ask you. How would you describe the workings of the two perfect natures when (a) Jesus supernaturally healed, and (b) he prayed to the Father? I always got in trouble when I tried. :)

So, no, at no time was Christ not aware of His human or divine nature. If by "His human nature" you mean doubt, that would be an indication that He was not perfect and did not believe in Himself, but fell for the temptation of doubt.

I didn't mean "doubt", I meant something that a deity would not say from the core of His essence, unless it was an insincere performance, and I don't think it was. So, how do we describe that? I agree that the two natures are together, and in full harmony, but in the Bible we see Christ doing and saying things that appear incompatible with one or the other of the natures. So, for description, I say things like "here we see His human nature". Then I get in trouble. :)

14,176 posted on 05/08/2007 4:00:19 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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