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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; Kolokotronis; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii
OK, I just wanted to clarify whether you thought that Paul was actually preaching error, i.e. that Paul subscribed to Protestant error. It "appears" you do hold that view

Yes I do. I mentioned numerous instances, the latest one was that God raised Jesus (the Church says Jesus rose). You answered that it was the divine nature of God that raised Jesus. Jesus and God are one Person. Jesus did not need "God" from the side to resurrect, just as he did not need the Spirit to "guide" Him in the desert, nor was he without the Spirit until His Baptism as the Gospel implies. His own divinity was sufficient to raise Himself.

Many a heresy sprang out of the words chosen by the Apostles, and much rationalizing took place to deny what otherwise seems obvious.

Whether he knew it or not, John the Baptist preached exactly the same thing

Yes, they were all apocalyptic Jews. Jesus comes across as one too. Apocalyptic Judaism emerged about 3rd or 2nd century BC. Sanhedrin, the Sadducees in charge of the Temple, on the other hand, held the "orthodox" line, accepting only the Torah as the Scripture, denying angels and resurrection.

This has always been a standard method of preaching

Among apocalyptic Jews, yes. But not 'away,' because that sect was of relatively recent origin.

Therefore, I do not think that Paul really thought the the end times were imminent in his time

It is quite clear that the Apostles believed the end was near or imminent. It is also quite clear that Jesus taught in that style.

I don't believe he would fudge on core doctrine (if he believed that works were necessary for salvation) because there was no need to.

Works for profit are not; but spiritual works are because they are an external expression of faith.

If he thought the end was really imminent he wouldn't have taken the time to write letters, knowing that it would be weeks or months before they were delivered and disseminated to his audience

That would be self-defeating. You do what you have to do and let God do the rest. he wasn't going to second-guess God, FK.

13,505 posted on 04/24/2007 9:42:20 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
[.. Many a heresy sprang out of the words chosen by the Apostles, and much rationalizing took place to deny what otherwise seems obvious. ..]

Being a christian is not what you believe but whom you are..
A christian can be a christian and a heretic also..
What you beleive can be modified with time..

13,508 posted on 04/24/2007 10:44:52 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: kosta50; annalex; Kolokotronis; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii; hosepipe
Jesus and God are one Person.

"God" is one Godhead and our Lord Jesus is one person. But what you say is also correct. So, if you acknowledge that "God" is included with Jesus then you must agree with me that Jesus did not raise Himself EXCLUSIVELY of "God". Your statement supports my position that "God raised Jesus" is NOT inconsistent with "Jesus rose".

Jesus did not need "God" from the side to resurrect, ...

I thought you just told me that "God" is never "to the side" of Jesus. I agree.

... just as he did not need the Spirit to "guide" Him in the desert, ...

In the scripture, I don't think there was ever any expression of "need", just an expression of "deed".

Many a heresy sprang out of the words chosen by the Apostles, and much rationalizing took place to deny what otherwise seems obvious.

Well, were they GOD'S words, OR were they the Apostles' words? Any words written in any language are subject to "heresy". God decides on whom to bestow eyes and ears.

FK: "This has always been a standard method of preaching."

Among apocalyptic Jews, yes. But not 'away,' because that sect was of relatively recent origin.

I was really talking more about us Christians today. :) As ironic as I know it must sound to you, this is how we preach! :) For example:

2 Cor 6:2 : 2 For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

I know that "the day" means since Jesus has come, and so it is correct today that every day is "the day" of salvation. No one can know if he will wake up in the morning or not, and we also know that a day is coming when it will be too late. Therefore, I include the idea of urgency, generally, to prospects in witnessing.

While I would not be shocked if it happens, I do not personally have a firm belief that the end will happen in my lifetime. However, since the stakes are so high, as they always have been, there is no service to the prospect in condoning procrastination.

13,803 posted on 05/02/2007 12:41:35 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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