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To: kosta50; betty boop; hosepipe; .30Carbine; Kitty Mittens; Kolokotronis; marron; Quix; T'wit; ...
Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

Can you tell me why did Jesus need to be led by the Spirit into the wilderness?

.30Carbine gave the answer beautifully in her first quote from Scripture:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. – Hebrews 4:15

And again, I strongly agree with .30Carbine that the Orthodox are missing a blessing since, as you say, Revelation is never quoted or read in the Divine Liturgy.”:

Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. – Rev 1:3

On your other point about Satan and the teaching under Judaism v. Christianity:

In the Book of Job, the satan is one of the "sons of God" (angels), which is quite consistent with Judaism's view of [the] satan (the accuser) as being a faithful servant of God.

The story changes in the New Testament. The book of Job is considered one of the oldest books of the OT and predates the Babylonian captivity. With the emergence of messianic and apocalyptic Judaism in the 2nd century BC, the nature of the satan begins to change into the familiar one we have: a fallen angel of God, devil himself (hence the proper name Satan).

Prior to the Persian influence, Judaism doesn't know dualism and therefore there is no "devil" per se; the satan remains a faithful servant of God, His "prosecuting attorney."

Even if we take the liberty of making the God of Job into Logos, the relationship between Him and the satan is that of cooperation and and adversity.

God does not change. Man does. Therefore, I assert that the change in man’s understanding of Satan is due to man’s philosophy or reasoning which he wrongfully superimposes on God’s revelations.

For instance, there has been a tendency among some Christians to believe that Satan is such a being that they can command him, accuse him and such.

Of course we can resist the devil – and truly as long as we abide in Christ and He in us, we have no reason to fear the devil.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

But we are not the judge of Satan. That belongs to God and has already been written and therefore I always recommend an abundance of caution when speaking to or of the devil. The Scriptures are not inconsistent on the matter:

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire? - Zech 3:1-2

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.– Jude 1:9-10

Rather, I assert that we should focus on the divine revelation alone – especially to spiritually discern the iniquity and thus our vulnerability to the urgings of Satan. To wit:

1. The iniquity found in Satan was pride (or vanity or ego.)

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more. – Eze 28:15-19

2. Satan has been the tempter, appealing to these same things (pride, vanity or ego) in others:

a. Eve in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:4-5) ”your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”

b. David to do a census (1 Ch 21:1-2) ” bring the number of them to me, that I may know [it].”

c. Job to curse God for losing all his mortal comforts: children, possessions and health (Job 1, etc.)

d. Joshua/Jesus for being filthy before God (Zech 3)

e. Jesus to sate his hunger, discomfort, etc. (Matt 4)

f. Some say (and I agree) his presence is implied with Jesus in Gethsemane to tempt Him to avoid the agony of the cross (Luke 22)

4. Satan’s judgment is written (Revelation 20).

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season…. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. – Rev 20:1-10 (excerpted)

There is a distinction in the Hebrew language between satan as a general term for an adversary and Satan as a being with a job to do before God, i.e. exists by God’s permissive will. (Jewish Encyclopedia on Satan) Both are preserved in the Tanakh – and the concepts carry forward to the New Testament, e.g. here:

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. – Matt 16:23

In this case, Peter has become the tempter – the one appealing to Jesus’ pride (vanity or ego) that he should not be killed and resurrected.

Interestingly this occurs just after Peter was honored for becoming the first to receive the divine revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Bottom line drawn from divine revelation alone (without doctrines or traditions of men): love God absolutely (Matt 22, the Great Commandment paraphrased) far and away above the second commandment of Matt 22, love of neighbor and - most especially, love of self. And be ever watchful for pride, vanity and ego creeping into the mind or soul – they are devilish and poison the spirit. Resisting them is closing the devil's "niche" (as betty boop calls it) to tempt us - he (and they) will flee if resisted.

13,215 posted on 04/21/2007 9:18:11 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

AMEN! AMEN!AMEN!

= = =

A-G:

Bottom line drawn from divine revelation alone (without doctrines or traditions of men): love God absolutely (Matt 22, the Great Commandment paraphrased) far and away above the second commandment of Matt 22, love of neighbor and - most especially, love of self. And be ever watchful for pride, vanity and ego creeping into the mind or soul – they are devilish and poison the spirit. Resisting them is closing the devil’s “niche” (as betty boop calls it) to tempt us - he (and they) will flee if resisted.


13,218 posted on 04/21/2007 9:45:23 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD!)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; hosepipe; .30Carbine; Kitty Mittens; Kolokotronis; marron; Quix; T'wit
Thank you A-G for a lovely and detailed answer.

.30Carbine gave the answer beautifully in her first quote from Scripture [why Jesus need to be led by the Spirit into the wilderness]: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin." – Hebrews 4:15

We cannot separate Christ's human nature from His divine nature. They are inseparable and always in perfect harmony. Implying that He needed a spiritual Guide is saying that His divine nature was insufficient or absent.

And again, I strongly agree with .30Carbine that the Orthodox are missing a blessing since, as you say, Revelation is “never quoted or read in the Divine Liturgy.”: "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand." – Rev 1:3

For the time is at hand...in speed, soon (Rev 1:1) the End-of-Times were preached and never came. Perhaps the Orthodox Church figured it's best to leave it alone.

On your other point about Satan and the teaching under Judaism v. Christianity: God does not change. Man does. Therefore, I assert that the change in man’s understanding of Satan is due to man’s philosophy or reasoning which he wrongfully superimposes on God’s revelations. For instance, there has been a tendency among some Christians to believe that Satan is such a being that they can command him, accuse him and such...[my emphases)...Of course we can resist the devil – and truly as long as we abide in Christ and He in us, we have no reason to fear the devil.

Now you are preaching my "gospel," AG. The perceptions have changed drastically from the OT to the NT and beyond. I agree,God doesn't change; we do.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

Yes, because the devil has no authority unless we give it to him. Once we realize this, he leaves the way he left Christ in the desert. He will wait for an opportune moment of weakness. So, evil is always luriking. Just as the Orthodox fathers tell us.

But the Lord also says: "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." [Mat 5:39] Why? Because we cannot right a wrong with another wrong. We cannot render evil for evil. God never does it, why should we? Giving in to evil is evil.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

That's lovely, but +Paul forgot to say "we can."

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee... – Eze 28:15-19

This is not about Satan (altough it deceptively sounds like it is!). Christians have twisted the meaning to fit their paradigm. This is directed a Phoenician entity. There is no Satan to be found by name or otherwise in those verses.

In this case, Peter has become the tempter – the one appealing to Jesus’ pride (vanity or ego) that he should not be killed and resurrected. Interestingly this occurs just after Peter was honored for becoming the first to receive the divine revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Christianity does not see Satan as just a tempter, but as the fallen angel, which Judaism rejects [Jewish reasoning: angles cannot rebel against God]

Bottom line drawn from divine revelation alone (without doctrines or traditions of men): love God absolutely (Matt 22, the Great Commandment paraphrased) far and away above the second commandment of Matt 22, love of neighbor and - most especially, love of self. And be ever watchful for pride, vanity and ego creeping into the mind or soul – they are devilish and poison the spirit. Resisting them is closing the devil's "niche" (as betty boop calls it) to tempt us - he (and they) will flee if resisted.

Bottom line is, as Luther said, that we will continue sinning whether we want it or not. He said something of this kind: don't worry, as long as you love God, He will cleanse you, so sin boldly and trust in God. But we don't see it that way. The Bible tells us to repent, not to sin boldly and believe.

13,250 posted on 04/21/2007 6:01:13 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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