I had to think a long time about this one because frankly, I struggle with categories like "one-time-only" rules that apply to only Adam and Eve. :) I still don't claim that I've got it, but here's my best shot:
We all say that Adam and Eve "fell from grace" because of sin. And, you said that we fall in the same way. Now, did Adam and Eve actually fall from a Saving grace, as Paul describes? Did Adam and Eve NEED saving when they were formed? It wouldn't seem so. Therefore, perhaps we are talking about two totally different kinds of graces. That would nullify any comparison between one of us today "losing" his salvation, and Adam.
We can ask: "did Adam 'lose' his salvation when he sinned"? That's a tough one for me. My inclination is to say "no", since he wasn't "saved" due to lack of need at the time. This is well above my pay-grade, but perhaps this is one instance where it can be useful to distinguish between salvation and justification. I think it would make sense to me to say that Adam lost his justification when he sinned, but not his salvation. I would also say that is one of the "one-time-only" rules. :) Now, before I dig my pit any deeper, I would love to hear any comments on these issues. :)
Yes, we can always repent; until our last breath. repentance means bearing fruit (cf Mat 3:8).
It's a subtle distinction, but I don't think that's what the verse says:
Matt 3:8 : Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. NIV
Matt 3:8 : Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: KJV
To me these both say that fruit is consistent with repentance, but not that works MEAN repentance. I see repentance as having to do with a change of heart, rather than the doing of works.
The salvation is based on God's judgment, for either we will be the sheep or the goats by His decision, not ours.
Ah, on this we do surely agree. :)
[continuing:] But we do know that His decision will be based on what we have done, the life we chose.
Well, it was fun while it lasted. :) What do you mean by "based"? You really mean "determined" don't you? Has God favored some who have done comparatively little, and damned some who have done comparatively much? Since God isn't partial, aren't we really talking about a SUBJECTIVE point system here? IOW, the answer I would expect is that salvation IS based on a point system, but the scale is different for everybody based on the individual circumstances in that person's life.
Those in "invincible ignorance" (people who without their own fault don't know Christ) as the Catholics call it are outside of our concern, for God will deal with them in a merciful and just way.
"Outside of our concern"? Kosta, I thought you cared. (sniff) :) Seriously though, isn't it our duty to care about all those we believe do not know Christ? Isn't it our duty, and honor, really, to minister to them and give them the Good News? We believe this is an absolute calling, indeed a COMMAND, by God to all believers.
In addition, (Alex or Joe can pick me up), but I don't think the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance ONLY applies to those who do not know Christ. My understanding is that it generally applies to those with beliefs outside those of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the doctrine does apply to Christians who are not of an Apostolic faith (as opposed to only lost people).
Now, did Adam and Eve actually fall from a Saving grace, as Paul describes? Did Adam and Eve NEED saving when they were formed?
Yes, of course. Adam was born with a potential to live eternally with God or to disobey and die. Our ancestral parents were created neither mortal nor immortal. What happened to them was their own decision with the freedom God gave them (freely, as He gives us all our blessings freely).
What we do with that freedom is a matter of choice. Either we cleave to God, or we reject and disobey Him, and choose perdition. The only thing Adam and Eve did not need was Baptism. They were already born under grace. And they are perfect example that those under grace can lose it by their own choice.
It's a subtle distinction, but I don't think that's what the verse says: Matt 3:8 : Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. NIV; Matt 3:8 : Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: KJV...To me these both say that fruit is consistent with repentance, but not that works MEAN repentance
Sure it does (works of faith, not profit). That verse is related to Acts 26:20 "repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
This is why some of us (like me) consider being Protestant "easy." You just confess to God, say "Lord, I am sorry," and keep on sinning (boldly, to bring up Luther again) knowing that as long as we believe we don't have to change our sinful ways" because we are "saved."
No Sir! The NT tells us clearly that repentance involves deeds and those are the deeds that we shall be judged upon. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds" [Mat 16:27]
The kinds of deeds that will not get you anywhere are mentioned in Mat 23:3, 23:5, John 3;19, etc.
What do you mean by "based"? You really mean "determined" don't you? Has God favored some who have done comparatively little, and damned some who have done comparatively much?
You are thinking materially because in the west that which is real is physical; it has weight, price and worldly value. Spiritual deeds have no price tag. In fact, many of them are trivial, even worthless, from the worldly point of view.
Spiritual values value each individual (emphasis added): "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." [Luk 15:7]
"Outside of our concern"? Kosta, I thought you cared. (sniff)
Yes I do care, but I know that we can't reach everyone, and that many who could be reached reject it and embrace other religions. I cannot worry about their salvation. I can only tell them what I believe is true. I can't make them embrace Christ! Nor can I worry what God will do with them. But I do believe that whatever happens to them (and us) will be, first of all, merciful and just, according to God's judgment.
I don't think the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance ONLY applies to those who do not know Christ. My understanding is that it generally applies to those with beliefs outside those of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the doctrine does apply to Christians who are not of an Apostolic faith (as opposed to only lost people).
Maybe, but as an Orthodox Christian I can only understand ignorance of Christ as applying to those who are not Christians. Christians who leave or stay outside the Church do so knowingly.
You are correct.