Now, did Adam and Eve actually fall from a Saving grace, as Paul describes? Did Adam and Eve NEED saving when they were formed?
Yes, of course. Adam was born with a potential to live eternally with God or to disobey and die. Our ancestral parents were created neither mortal nor immortal. What happened to them was their own decision with the freedom God gave them (freely, as He gives us all our blessings freely).
What we do with that freedom is a matter of choice. Either we cleave to God, or we reject and disobey Him, and choose perdition. The only thing Adam and Eve did not need was Baptism. They were already born under grace. And they are perfect example that those under grace can lose it by their own choice.
It's a subtle distinction, but I don't think that's what the verse says: Matt 3:8 : Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. NIV; Matt 3:8 : Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: KJV...To me these both say that fruit is consistent with repentance, but not that works MEAN repentance
Sure it does (works of faith, not profit). That verse is related to Acts 26:20 "repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
This is why some of us (like me) consider being Protestant "easy." You just confess to God, say "Lord, I am sorry," and keep on sinning (boldly, to bring up Luther again) knowing that as long as we believe we don't have to change our sinful ways" because we are "saved."
No Sir! The NT tells us clearly that repentance involves deeds and those are the deeds that we shall be judged upon. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds" [Mat 16:27]
The kinds of deeds that will not get you anywhere are mentioned in Mat 23:3, 23:5, John 3;19, etc.
What do you mean by "based"? You really mean "determined" don't you? Has God favored some who have done comparatively little, and damned some who have done comparatively much?
You are thinking materially because in the west that which is real is physical; it has weight, price and worldly value. Spiritual deeds have no price tag. In fact, many of them are trivial, even worthless, from the worldly point of view.
Spiritual values value each individual (emphasis added): "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." [Luk 15:7]
"Outside of our concern"? Kosta, I thought you cared. (sniff)
Yes I do care, but I know that we can't reach everyone, and that many who could be reached reject it and embrace other religions. I cannot worry about their salvation. I can only tell them what I believe is true. I can't make them embrace Christ! Nor can I worry what God will do with them. But I do believe that whatever happens to them (and us) will be, first of all, merciful and just, according to God's judgment.
I don't think the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance ONLY applies to those who do not know Christ. My understanding is that it generally applies to those with beliefs outside those of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the doctrine does apply to Christians who are not of an Apostolic faith (as opposed to only lost people).
Maybe, but as an Orthodox Christian I can only understand ignorance of Christ as applying to those who are not Christians. Christians who leave or stay outside the Church do so knowingly.
Yes, of course. Adam was born with a potential to live eternally with God or to disobey and die. Our ancestral parents were created neither mortal nor immortal. What happened to them was their own decision with the freedom God gave them (freely, as He gives us all our blessings freely). ...... The only thing Adam and Eve did not need was Baptism. They were already born under grace. And they are perfect example that those under grace can lose it by their own choice.
But when formed, what did they need saving FROM? You are right that they had potential to sin, but that is not a crime. It was the sin itself that doomed them. They were formed with grace, but I contend that it was a grace of a different kind than "saving grace". I think most of us generally think of them as being in Heaven now, but the grace that made that happen didn't come until later, after the Fall. They repented.
This is why some of us (like me) consider being Protestant "easy." You just confess to God, say "Lord, I am sorry," and keep on sinning (boldly, to bring up Luther again) knowing that as long as we believe we don't have to change our sinful ways" because we are "saved."
While Jesus does tell us that His burden is light, the scripture explicitly contradicts all that you say we think. That's why we don't think it. We can and HAVE posted all the Biblical doctrine proving that it doesn't work like this. That's all we can do.
FK: "I don't think the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance ONLY applies to those who do not know Christ. My understanding is that it generally applies to those with beliefs outside those of the Roman Catholic Church."
Maybe, but as an Orthodox Christian I can only understand ignorance of Christ as applying to those who are not Christians. Christians who leave or stay outside the Church do so knowingly.
I can see that for those who believed, but then left your faith. What about the millions who know nothing about Orthodoxy, like me before FR?