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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis
Nice try, but no sale. :) Your verses do not show that Paul didn't recognize Jesus as God. Here are some examples: Col 2:9-10 : 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So, according to this the fullness of the Deity lives in us too. Does that make us Gods? It just so happens that this one is (along with ephesians written soon afterwards) is one of those disputed Pauline books as regards to authorship. Unlike his earlier works, its character is doctrinally ciritcal od Gnostics and their distaste for the body. Hence referencese to bodies.

Collosians 1:15 actually says "He is the image (Gr. eikwn, eikon) of the invisible God" in an attempt to assciate visible body with something godly (since the Gnostics considered the body as evil), for obvious reasons.

But he falls short of calling Him God. We say that a priest an icon of Christ, but no one thinks that he is Christ!

Phil 2:5-11 : 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness

Oh, no, no, no. The Greek text says "being in the form [morfwn, morphon] of God, not "the very nature of God!" The word for nature/essence is ουσία (ousia). The word morphon comes from morphe which means form/shape.

Someone changed the word "form" into "the very nature" of God and completely changed the meaning of the verse.

God the single essence did raise Jesus, who else would have?

The Church (Creed) says "He rose..." That seems sufficiently divine. +Paul uses the word God in place of Father in just about every reference to God and not to "single essence."

Don't you even say that during this time, He left to go into Hades?

Sure, and that's another curious issue. St. John Chrysostom says Death expected a body and found God. No mention here of any separation of Christ's two natures.

re "for the Father is greater than I." [John 14:28]. FK: "So is this verse wrong and not God-breathed? Wouldn't we both just say that it needs to be taken in context and needs a simple interpretation?"

Well, in context everything points to an unequal "single essence." Christ also is quoted as saying to the disciples not to worry and not to toruble their hearts, for they should be happy He is going to the Father. But, then, in the Gethsemane He is torubled and afraid.

13,193 posted on 04/21/2007 12:50:28 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
So, according to this the fullness of the Deity lives in us too. Does that make us Gods? It just so happens that this one is (along with ephesians written soon afterwards) is one of those disputed Pauline books as regards to authorship. Unlike his earlier works, its character is doctrinally ciritcal od Gnostics and their distaste for the body. Hence referencese to bodies.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
~Galatians 3:26

They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
~Psalm 82:5-6

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
~John 10:34-36


13,198 posted on 04/21/2007 3:02:57 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; Kolokotronis; .30Carbine
Col 2:9-10 : 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So, according to this the fullness of the Deity lives in us too. Does that make us Gods?

No, of course not. "Fullness in Christ" is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. That is to human capacity. No essence is transferred or shared.

It just so happens that this one is (along with Ephesians written soon afterwards) is one of those disputed Pauline books as regards to authorship. Unlike his earlier works, its character is doctrinally critical of Gnostics and their distaste for the body. Hence reference to bodies.

I'm not aware of any credible dispute as to the authorship of these books. Paul went where he went, and then he wrote to them according to their needs, and ours.

Collosians 1:15 actually says "He is the image (Gr. eikwn, eikon) of the invisible God" in an attempt to associate visible body with something godly (since the Gnostics considered the body as evil), for obvious reasons. But he falls short of calling Him God. We say that a priest an icon of Christ, but no one thinks that he is Christ!

I think "image" has survived as a good description here. An "image" is a visible perception. "God" is not normally visible, but in Christ He is. That's all he meant. Paul recognizes Christ as God over and over again in scriptures. I've given you some of many verses.

The Greek text says "being in the form [morfwn, morphon] of God, not "the very nature of God!" The word for nature/essence is ουσία (ousia). The word morphon comes from morphe which means form/shape.

"Nature" is a perfectly good translation (or use) of "morphe" (Strong's 3444). It also includes your interpretation, more prominently. Trying to show that Paul did not recognize Christ as God is a very uphill struggle, imho :). That's because, first one must assert that Paul was not a Christian, that he was not born again.

Well, in context everything points to an unequal "single essence." Christ also is quoted as saying to the disciples not to worry and not to trouble their hearts, for they should be happy He is going to the Father. But, then, in the Gethsemane He is troubled and afraid.

Do you think that is contradictory? I don't. The disciples HAD no worries, comparatively, but when Jesus went to Gethsemane, we saw His human nature.

13,667 posted on 04/28/2007 12:59:06 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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