Replies

First, none of you speak Greek or think in or like Greek or Greeks. I do.

I think that is a tad harsh. I'll confess I don't know many Greeks but those that I have met were very likable chaps. Given polling data, I would tend to say, in general, Americans are ambivalent to Greeks. I would also say, in general, the Greeks do not like Americans or our policies.

It is disingenuous at best for any of you to claim you know better than Greek speaking Fathers did about the meaning of áäåëöïé!

Please don't tell me that just because you're Greek you know the thought process of every Greek.

Second, the issue of the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos, a subject closely tied to the meaning of the word áäåëöïé, did not spring full blown out of nowhere in the Fifth century and the Council of Ephesus or from the writings of +Jerome. Origen argues for it in the 2nd century.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. The Orthodox and Catholics base their beliefs on the Canons and the Magisterium. They are guided by the Holy Spirit and are free, where reasonable, to evolve their theology discarding old beliefs and establishing new ones after careful deliberations.

Protestants base their beliefs on what specifically the scriptures states. If they discuss things contain in the scriptures and come to a general consensus, isn't that the same thing as what the Orthodox and Catholics are doing? Are we not allowed to do the same thing? I would think you would welcome that.

What you find offensive is that we would question the perpetual virginity of Mary apart from the traditions of the Church. There is no scriptural support for the perpetual virginity of Mary. But, frankly, it probably would be a non-issue with us Protestants except for the excessiveness in which Mary is worshiped today. It seems your beef is really with the Catholics.

If they discuss things contain in the scriptures and come to a general consensus, isn't that the same thing as what the Orthodox and Catholics are doing?

We do nothing of the kind. We want to discern the mind of the Church. The scripture helps. To think that we can get together and figure out wat we think the Holy Scripture means is a uniquely Protestant, and very wrong, idea.

in general, Americans are ambivalent to Greeks.

I didn't see the post as criticising Americans. The point is you are way over your head here arguing the Greek language and the interpretation and beliefs of the Greek fathers.

"I'll confess I don't know many Greeks but those that I have met were very likable chaps."

Well, you've been fooled. As I said before, we really aren't nice people. That's why we were the first Gentiles the Faith was preached to.

"Please don't tell me that just because you're Greek you know the thought process of every Greek."

That isn't what I said, HD.

"The Orthodox and Catholics base their beliefs on the Canons and the Magisterium. They are guided by the Holy Spirit and are free, where reasonable, to evolve their theology discarding old beliefs and establishing new ones after careful deliberations."

We base our dogmas on what the canons say. I can't speak to the Magisterium of the Latin Church. Dogmas can be refined by a council; they cannot be discarded. In establishing dogmas, The Church determines what The Church always and everywhere has believed. In this process, the consensus patrum is particularly important, as are our liturgics, since they are ancient expressions of that very thing.

"What you find offensive is that we would question the perpetual virginity of Mary apart from the traditions of the Church."

HD, you know I don't find Protestant beliefs offensive. I find them interesting, and many times instructive (remember the Semi-Pelagian stuff) though they have virtually no religious meaning for me. I do find unending Protestant attacks on Marian theology offensive and I find most of the methods used to question that theology disingenuous. Your beliefs, however, are just that, your beliefs. They take nothing away from my faith.

"But, frankly, it probably would be a non-issue with us Protestants except for the excessiveness in which Mary is worshiped today. It seems your beef is really with the Catholics."

Well, I guess I needn't say that it is not Catholic doctrine or dogma that the Theotokos be worshipped. But they do have their loons who come perilously close to that. Usually they are the first to admit it. Those people are heretics in my opinion. If you focused your concern on them, I don't think you'd get much argument from the Catholics. But you see, it appears your reaction is another one of those "throw the baby out with the bath water" things.

Please don't tell me that just because you're Greek you know the thought process of every Greek

HD, what Kolokotronis is telling you is anything but that. I am a little surprised that you would think that.

What Koloktoronis is telling you is that you can't learn English from a book. Rather, one has to learn the spoken language used by native-speakers. You can't learn the finesse, the "soul" of any language from a book.

There is something called "idiomatic expression," a sentence or a statement that says one thing but really means something else. To someone who is unfamiliar with the culture in which it is used, such an expression either makes no sense or leads to a wrong conclusion. "Being stoned" in the 1st century Middle East did not mean being "high" on some drug.

Nor does being "high" on some drug mean you are really "up" there! All these are "normal" idiomatic expresisons to English-speakers who do not for a moment confuse the actual words with the meaning.

In my six years spent in Japan, I discovered that most Japanese study English from kindergarten onward and never learn it because they interpret English within a Japanese mindset, grammar and linguistic framework.

One particular example stands in my mind, and it has to do with Lark cigarettes. They were advertised with a simple sentence "SPEAK Lark"

At first, this "language" known as "Japanglish" was startling, but then I realized that it was based on a very subtle misconception based on the way the Japanese language is trustucred (which is very, very different from English).

In Japanese, the word "say" or "tell" does not exist. The closest form to it is "speak." So, rather than market the product in the spirit of the English language as "Say 'Lark'" the Japanese simply translated clumsily from the book (after all speak and say are synonymous in a thesaurus, so they must be interchangeable, right?).

As far as the book is concerned, it is "correct," but to English speakers it is obviously flawed, because raw "book logic" is not the living language.

Hence, Koloktronis's message to you, and the Apostolic Church's point to the Protestants, that one cannot simply read the Book in any language and any culture and "know."

Here is another fine exmaple of what I mean by Japanglish. Enjoy. :)

I had two Greek roommates in college.

They sure know how to party. 8~)