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To: annalex
I do not see the word saved in vs.10. [of Romans 2] No, not 10, but verse 7 speaks of eternal life, that is of salvation and not of a post-salvation reward.

The key word in verse 7 is seek.

If one seeks eternal life and follows what God says, the Gospel will be revealed to him as in the case of Cornilus (Acts 10)

James is speaking of what is seen, he is not speaking of being justified in the theological sense

This is your opinion, in which I am not interested. James uses both "saved" (James 2:14) and "justified" (James 2:24) in the same passage.

No, what I gave was the correct interpretation of the verse.

shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

As for being 'saved', James is discussing being saved from physical death, (sin unto death 1Jn.5:16), not eternal damnation.

See Jn.16:2 and 2Tim.2:16.

In Romans 4, v.5 speaks of works for reward and out of obligation, and in v.9 of works od ceremonial law. Indeed, neither is salvific.

No, Romans makes it clear it is discussing eternal salvation and the works it is discussing are all works.

Just as Eph. 2:9 states, not by works lest anyone should boast'

[Luke 17:5-10] has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with rewards Luke 17:5-10] explains how faith is increased, through works. And faith, we all agree, is salvific.

No one disagrees that faith can be increased by works, proving the faith.

Yet that faith has nothing to do with salvation, since salvation faith is a seed that is an eternal seed that is implanted and cannot die (1Pe.1:23)

The faith that grows has to do with Christian maturity and growth, as was the case of Abraham who was saved in Gen.15, but not called a friend of God until Gen.22.

1Cor.3 is not proof text for the non-Biblical purgetory

The spelling is "Purgatory". Yes, it is such prooftext. We've been there a year ago.

Thank you for the spelling correction, but the man in 1Cor. 3 is not being burned, his works are.

offering a sin offering means that she was a sinner

What was her sin then? The offering in question is done after a woman gives birth. We don't consider giving birth sin. Do you?

The sin offering was for all women who gave birth because they had sin in their bodies, not for any particular sin-just as Mary had a body of sin (Ps.51:5) like every human being born of a human father.

12,488 posted on 04/13/2007 4:49:49 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: fortheDeclaration
Let me make one general remark. I may have made it before to you, in which case pardon the repetition. I do not have an issue with you or any other Protestant interpreting the scripture in the way you like. Some scriptures can be interpreted in the Catholic way and also in the way you interpret them. For example, much of the Catholic mariology is one particular interpretation of the scripture among other interpretations. In these cases I tend to skip down to a more productive discussion. My chief concern is to explain the Catohlic reading of the scripture. I will also point out when your reading is not merely deviant from Catholicism but also contradicts the very scripture you hold as the sole arbiter in disputes. OK? I mention this just to save time, because you seem to want to tell me what you think of the scripture, and I am not really interested in anyone's private interpretation, so I am not interested in yours either. I will also conflate your posts to me in batches of my own, as my time allows.

Romans 2:6-10.

This is largely your interpretation. The passage says that those who do good works get eternal life and the rest "wrath and indignation". If you want to wiggle out of it with some casuistry, do it on your own.

James 2

Verse 18, when it speaks of works as a demonstration of faith is put there rhetorically:

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

St. James does not say it, his rhetorical opponent does. James concludes that "faith without works is dead" and he hcalls the rhetorical opponent, you, "vain man".

James is discussing being saved from physical death

This is your fantasy. St. James speaks of salvation in v. 14, justification throughout the passage. Of physical death he speaks once, comparing it to the death of faith, v. 26.

Romans [ch.4] makes it clear it is discussing eternal salvation and the works it is discussing are all works

The context says otherwise, and nowhere does it say "all works". The context mentions debt, that is obligation to work, and circumcision, that is ceremonial works of Jewish law. Eph. 2:9 adds works of social reward, "boast", to that list of non-salvific works.

No one disagrees that faith can be increased by works

So what are you arguing then? This is the Catholic teaching: works increase faith and hence are necessary for salvation.

but the man in 1Cor. 3 is not being burned, his works are.

Good enough, the purgation therein described is Purgatory nonetheless.

The sin offering was for all women who gave birth because they had sin in their bodies, not for any particular sin

Ah. So, Mary had no particular sin. She simply fulfilled a ceremonial obligaiton.

The only thing counted for salvation is the faith

None of your prooftexts (Rom.4:5,Eph.2:9,Tit.3:5,Rom.4:16) say "only". You read various passages that speak of the importance of faith and jump to your own conclusions.

is insane!

"it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21)

12,565 posted on 04/13/2007 12:03:51 PM PDT by annalex
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