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To: fortheDeclaration
Let me make one general remark. I may have made it before to you, in which case pardon the repetition. I do not have an issue with you or any other Protestant interpreting the scripture in the way you like. Some scriptures can be interpreted in the Catholic way and also in the way you interpret them. For example, much of the Catholic mariology is one particular interpretation of the scripture among other interpretations. In these cases I tend to skip down to a more productive discussion. My chief concern is to explain the Catohlic reading of the scripture. I will also point out when your reading is not merely deviant from Catholicism but also contradicts the very scripture you hold as the sole arbiter in disputes. OK? I mention this just to save time, because you seem to want to tell me what you think of the scripture, and I am not really interested in anyone's private interpretation, so I am not interested in yours either. I will also conflate your posts to me in batches of my own, as my time allows.

Romans 2:6-10.

This is largely your interpretation. The passage says that those who do good works get eternal life and the rest "wrath and indignation". If you want to wiggle out of it with some casuistry, do it on your own.

James 2

Verse 18, when it speaks of works as a demonstration of faith is put there rhetorically:

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

St. James does not say it, his rhetorical opponent does. James concludes that "faith without works is dead" and he hcalls the rhetorical opponent, you, "vain man".

James is discussing being saved from physical death

This is your fantasy. St. James speaks of salvation in v. 14, justification throughout the passage. Of physical death he speaks once, comparing it to the death of faith, v. 26.

Romans [ch.4] makes it clear it is discussing eternal salvation and the works it is discussing are all works

The context says otherwise, and nowhere does it say "all works". The context mentions debt, that is obligation to work, and circumcision, that is ceremonial works of Jewish law. Eph. 2:9 adds works of social reward, "boast", to that list of non-salvific works.

No one disagrees that faith can be increased by works

So what are you arguing then? This is the Catholic teaching: works increase faith and hence are necessary for salvation.

but the man in 1Cor. 3 is not being burned, his works are.

Good enough, the purgation therein described is Purgatory nonetheless.

The sin offering was for all women who gave birth because they had sin in their bodies, not for any particular sin

Ah. So, Mary had no particular sin. She simply fulfilled a ceremonial obligaiton.

The only thing counted for salvation is the faith

None of your prooftexts (Rom.4:5,Eph.2:9,Tit.3:5,Rom.4:16) say "only". You read various passages that speak of the importance of faith and jump to your own conclusions.

is insane!

"it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21)

12,565 posted on 04/13/2007 12:03:51 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
Let me make one general remark. I may have made it before to you, in which case pardon the repetition. I do not have an issue with you or any other Protestant interpreting the scripture in the way you like. Some scriptures can be interpreted in the Catholic way and also in the way you interpret them. For example, much of the Catholic mariology is one particular interpretation of the scripture among other interpretations. In these cases I tend to skip down to a more productive discussion. My chief concern is to explain the Catohlic reading of the scripture. I will also point out when your reading is not merely deviant from Catholicism but also contradicts the very scripture you hold as the sole arbiter in disputes. OK? I mention this just to save time, because you seem to want to tell me what you think of the scripture, and I am not really interested in anyone's private interpretation, so I am not interested in yours either. I will also conflate your posts to me in batches of my own, as my time allows.

Those interpretations of scripture are not private in the sense that they are my 'opinions'.

They are based on the normal, clear reading of the passage, not reading into the passage what you want to find.

Christ never even uses the term Mother for Mary, and when she comes to get Him, with His brethren, He refuses to leave and doesn't even go to her. (Mat.12:46-50)

Romans 2:6-10. This is largely your interpretation. The passage says that those who do good works get eternal life and the rest "wrath and indignation". If you want to wiggle out of it with some casuistry, do it on your own.

I am reading the scripture and addressing with what it says, not what I want it to say.

The passage does not say that doing good works result in eternal life, it says, those who seek eternal life by doing good works will find it.

Again the example is found in Acts 10, when Cornilus was brought to the Gospel because he was a 'devout' man.

Yet, his good works did not save him, he had to receive the Gospel by faith to be saved.

Words do matter in scripture.

James 2 Verse 18, when it speaks of works as a demonstration of faith is put there rhetorically: 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. St. James does not say it, his rhetorical opponent does. James concludes that "faith without works is dead" and he hcalls the rhetorical opponent, you, "vain man". James is discussing being saved from physical death This is your fantasy. St. James speaks of salvation in v. 14, justification throughout the passage. Of physical death he speaks once, comparing it to the death of faith, v. 26.

Nowhere is eternal damnation mentioned, only physical death.

Every example given represents an active faith showing itself by its acts, not saving anyone eternally.

Abraham was saved in Gen.15, not Gen.22.

Gen. 22 showed that he believed.

James makes what he is saying very clear in vs.22, seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

A 'dead' faith, one that does not produce works results in physical death for those who have believed, such as the Exodus generation, who died before going into the Promised Land (Heb.4:2).

Christ states very clearly in John 15:2, that God the Father removes those who do not produce fruit.

Moreover, Paul states that one can lose his faith (dead faith) and Christ will not forsake him (2Tim.2)

Romans [ch.4] makes it clear it is discussing eternal salvation and the works it is discussing are all works The context says otherwise, and nowhere does it say "all works". The context mentions debt, that is obligation to work, and circumcision, that is ceremonial works of Jewish law. Eph. 2:9 adds works of social reward, "boast", to that list of non-salvific works.

Now you are just playing games.

The passages that are stated make it clear that all works being discussed and no distinction is made between some works and others.

What Paul makes clear is that it is either faith or works, and if it is going to be by grace, it must be by faith and faith alone (without works) since works demand a reward and thus, are not grace.

The passage in Eph. 2:9 makes it clear that all works are excluded 'lest any man should boast', it has nothing to do with any particular kind of work.

No one disagrees that faith can be increased by works

So what are you arguing then? This is the Catholic teaching: works increase faith and hence are necessary for salvation.

Clearly, you do not understand the Baptist view of Sanctification.

Salvation occurs in a moment at the receiving of the Gospel.

Growth occurs over time with faith being tested and producing fruit (Jn.15:3, Ja.1:2-3,1Pe.1:7), to be rewarded for at the Judgement seat of Christ (Rom.14:10, 2Cor.5:10)

but the man in 1Cor. 3 is not being burned, his works are.

Good enough, the purgation therein described is Purgatory nonetheless.

No it is not, since the man himself is not being burnt and suffering for his sins.

His useless works are being burned, while the good works are rewarded (Gold, silver, and precious stones).

Purgatory has nothing to do with rewards.

The sin offering was for all women who gave birth because they had sin in their bodies, not for any particular sin

Ah. So, Mary had no particular sin. She simply fulfilled a ceremonial obligaiton.

No, Mary needed a saviour like anyone else and called Christ her saviour, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary was born with a sin nature and committed sin, just like anyone else and needed a saviour for those sins.

The only thing counted for salvation is the faith

None of your prooftexts (Rom.4:5,Eph.2:9,Tit.3:5,Rom.4:16) say "only". You read various passages that speak of the importance of faith and jump to your own conclusions.

What those texts say is that there is no works at all involved in salvation and they state that it is by faith and not works.

Thus, they do not have use the word 'only', they remove any possiblity of works being involved by the clear statment,

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom.4:5).

Works are removed from the equation thus, it is by faith and faith alone (without works) that one is saved.

is insane!

"it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21)

Now, to cut out the entire statement and just leave 'is insane' is a sign of blatant dishonestly.

What is 'insane' is the RCC making John the representive of the Church, where nowhere is it stated as such and then to jump from that to state because John took Mary in his own home as his mother, that Mary is the 'mother' of the believer.

No scripture ever states such a thing.

But your use of 1Cor.1:21 is interesting since it states that those who are saved are saved by believing, not working.

No Roman Catholic can use only scriptures to defend their system, since it is not based on scripture, but tradition, thus the RC makes scripture to fit it's own constantly evolving doctrines.

12,822 posted on 04/16/2007 3:54:21 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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