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To: fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper
Mary gave birth to the Messiah and it was He who brought salvation to men

This is, of course, also true, this is why Mary is co-redeemer but not a redeemer. At least this is what my Church teaches.

how can anyone 'keep the Word' as Mary carried Christ in her womb?

We can be likewise faithful to Christ and place ourselves at the foot of the Cross with St. John and Mary the Mother of God. We can let our soul magnify the Lord and let our spirit rejoice in God our Saviour. We can, in short, pray to her often, and ask for guidance.

Christ is clearly turning people away from venerating His mother

The slight rebuke you detect in Jesus's voice is directed at those who might venerate Mary as purely a vessel, a breeding apparatus for God. This is, of course, a defect of Protestant, not Catholic, mariology. Still, veneration He approves, but He directs it at the true essence of Mary as the first and most faithful disciple, one without sin.

addresses her as 'woman'.

He does, doesn't He? This echoes "the woman" whose seed will crush the Serpent (Genesis 3:15). It certainly has no connotation of disrespect, as historical scholarship showed, -- Forest Keeper made a post recently about this.

12,083 posted on 03/26/2007 7:10:46 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
Mary gave birth to the Messiah and it was He who brought salvation to men This is, of course, also true, this is why Mary is co-redeemer but not a redeemer. At least this is what my Church teaches.

And where did you get the notion that she was any kind of redeemer?

Not from the Bible!

how can anyone 'keep the Word' as Mary carried Christ in her womb? We can be likewise faithful to Christ and place ourselves at the foot of the Cross with St. John and Mary the Mother of God. We can let our soul magnify the Lord and let our spirit rejoice in God our Saviour. We can, in short, pray to her often, and ask for guidance.

That is not keeping the 'word' as Mary did keep the 'Word' in her womb.

Christ is clearly turning people away from venerating His mother The slight rebuke you detect in Jesus's voice is directed at those who might venerate Mary as purely a vessel, a breeding apparatus for God. This is, of course, a defect of Protestant, not Catholic, mariology. Still, veneration He approves, but He directs it at the true essence of Mary as the first and most faithful disciple, one without sin.

And where is Mary ever addressed as one without sin?

addresses her as 'woman'. He does, doesn't He? This echoes "the woman" whose seed will crush the Serpent (Genesis 3:15). It certainly has no connotation of disrespect, as historical scholarship showed, -- Forest Keeper made a post recently about this.

Christ doesn't call Mary, 'the woman' he calls her 'woman' instead of mother.

Moreover, I didn't say the term 'woman' had any connotation of disrespect, but neither does it have any connotation of superior respect either.

In fact, when Mary and Christ's brothers came to get Him, Christ said 'who is my mother or brethren'(Mk.3:33)

For There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1Tim.2:5)

12,097 posted on 03/27/2007 3:33:57 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: annalex; fortheDeclaration; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
FTD: "Mary gave birth to the Messiah and it was He who brought salvation to men."

Alex: "This is, of course, also true, this is why Mary is co-redeemer but not a redeemer."

Since Protestants have ZERO acceptance of Mary having anything to do with our redemption (beyond giving birth), I'm sure you can see how we have a very hard time with your statement, at least in these times. The common usage of "co-" connotes something/one necessary or important to accomplishing something. We have "co-workers" who are presumably needed. We also have the concept of "teammates".

In the professional world, and especially in theological debates, we often use the example of "co-pilot". Perhaps it is possible that the captain "could" fly the plane without help, but we assume against that. We assume that a "co-pilot" is NECESSARY for safe operation or else the airline wouldn't pay for the position. I know for a fact that many Protestants believe that the use of the term "co-redeemer" by the RCC indicates a belief that Mary is somehow necessary for salvation.

Is that true? If it is not true, then how would you advise the Pope to clear this up, and many similar great misunderstandings, along the same lines? Of course, this is tied to the generally admitted Catholic belief that Persons are necessary co-pilots to their own salvations. According to your beliefs, people must CO-operate with God in order to be permanently saved. The free will of the person is necessary. With the terms you give us, why should we think that Mary is any less neccessary to our salvation if she is a CO-redeemer?

The slight rebuke you detect in Jesus's voice is directed at those who might venerate Mary as purely a vessel, a breeding apparatus for God.

Really? Can you give an example of where Jesus rebukes someone for potentially venerating Mary improperly?

12,259 posted on 04/09/2007 6:40:31 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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