To: blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; Forest Keeper; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
the bread that Jesus used and the wine that Jesus used was the same they had been eating and drinking all evening as part of the meal This is true. Likewise, a priest can consecrate ordinary wheat bread and fermented grape wine and they boceom the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is exactly what the Church teaches.
Jesus ate it with them and He wasn't eating His own flesh or drinking His own blood.
This is your opinion. I read the scripture -- which is silent on the particular issue whether the elements transsubstantiated for Jesus as well.
"Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you (1 Cor 11:24)"?
I ordinarily quote from Douay-Rheims. This is the Young's Literal for the entire verse:
and having given thanks, he brake, and said, `Take ye, eat ye, this is my body, that for you is being broken; this do ye -- to the remembrance of me.'
The Greek verb that D-R has "delivered" is "klomenon" (with an Omega). I cannot find it in Liddell-Scott in the time I currently have, and don't know it from memory. Jerome has it translated "tradetur", delivered or betrayed.
To: annalex
This is true. Likewise, a priest can consecrate ordinary wheat bread and fermented grape wine and they become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. I'm not talking about the kind of bread. I'm recalling that if we assume (as I would) that this was a passover meal (Dom Gregory Dix to the contrary notwithstanding) that there are different cups and different loaves throughout the meal. It is not clear to me that Jesus ate of the particular loaf he declared to be His body. That was the distinction I was drawing.
11,868 posted on
03/23/2007 2:42:20 PM PDT by
Mad Dawg
(Tactical shotty, Marlin 1894c, S&W 686P, Sig 226 & 239, Beretta 92fs & 8357, Glock 22, & attitude!)
To: annalex; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; Forest Keeper; Quix; HarleyD
"The Greek verb that D-R has "delivered" is "klomenon" (with an Omega). I cannot find it in Liddell-Scott in the time I currently have, and don't know it from memory. Jerome has it translated "tradetur", delivered or betrayed."
You're good! Here is the phrase in the mother tongue:
"Λάβετε, φάγετε, τοῦτό μού ἐστι τὸ σῶμα, τὸ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν κλώμενον, εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν."
Κλώμενον means delivered up or handed over in the sense of as to an enemy. Here's an interesting little bit. Notice the difference, Alex, between "σομα" (body) here and "σαρχ" (flesh) elsewhere.
11,881 posted on
03/23/2007 3:30:14 PM PDT by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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