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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; Forest Keeper; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD

"You really ought to write a gospel of your own"

No, you really need to read the gospel in its entirety in context.

(Mt 26:26, Mk 14:22, Lk 22:19)These verses you cite say that the bread that Jesus used and the wine that Jesus used was the same they had been eating and drinking all evening as part of the meal. During the meal He holds up a piece of the bread that they had been eating and says "this is my body" and then He holds up the bowl of wine they had been drinking and says "this is my blood" and then He eats the bread and drinks the wine with them and He says "do this in remembrance of me".

Jesus says it was just a memorial act for if it was His flesh it would not be a memorial but actual. Jesus ate it with them and He wasn't eating His own flesh or drinking His own blood. Jesus was not yet dead so His physical body was intact. Jesus gave Judas Iscariot the bread and wine even though Jesus knew he would betray Him so it certainly did not have any sanctifying power or grace attached to it. Jesus said He would once again participate in the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine in the kingdom which is evidence that they are symbols looking back to what Jesus accomplished and forward to the coming feast, not the continual reiteration of a sacrifice once and for all given for the sins of the world.

By the way, where did this come from "Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you (1 Cor 11:24)"? I know of no competent translation of that passage that gives that sense.


11,842 posted on 03/23/2007 1:30:59 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

(psst: for overall evaluation -- if you want to evaluate overalls, that is -- I think you need to consider whether or not it was a passover meal and then look at the possibility of different breads at different times - cups too. I don't remember all the details, but it's good stuff.)


11,845 posted on 03/23/2007 1:47:38 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Tactical shotty, Marlin 1894c, S&W 686P, Sig 226 & 239, Beretta 92fs & 8357, Glock 22, & attitude!)
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To: blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; Forest Keeper; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
the bread that Jesus used and the wine that Jesus used was the same they had been eating and drinking all evening as part of the meal

This is true. Likewise, a priest can consecrate ordinary wheat bread and fermented grape wine and they boceom the body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is exactly what the Church teaches.

Jesus ate it with them and He wasn't eating His own flesh or drinking His own blood.

This is your opinion. I read the scripture -- which is silent on the particular issue whether the elements transsubstantiated for Jesus as well.

"Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you (1 Cor 11:24)"?

I ordinarily quote from Douay-Rheims. This is the Young's Literal for the entire verse:

and having given thanks, he brake, and said, `Take ye, eat ye, this is my body, that for you is being broken; this do ye -- to the remembrance of me.'

The Greek verb that D-R has "delivered" is "klomenon" (with an Omega). I cannot find it in Liddell-Scott in the time I currently have, and don't know it from memory. Jerome has it translated "tradetur", delivered or betrayed.

11,859 posted on 03/23/2007 2:26:16 PM PDT by annalex
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