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To: annalex; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Mad Dawg; Quix; kawaii; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg
Her work was the rearing of Christ, to her He was obedient; Him she encouraged to begin His work of miracles; ...

What makes you think that Christ needed encouragement to begin performing miracles, or that Mary even did that? Isn't it interesting that about the ONLY thing we are told about His childhood was that Mary did not yet believe?:

Luke 2:48-50 : 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

In addition, I can't believe you are seriously suggesting (if you are) that John 2:3 counts as Mary encouraging Jesus to perform a miracle. :) Mary says: "They have no more wine." That's it. It is pure invention to suggest that this meant Mary was encouraging Jesus to wave His hands and produce some from thin air. Biblically, we have no idea if Mary "got it" at this point.

11,732 posted on 03/22/2007 4:54:11 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
What makes you think that Christ needed encouragement to begin performing miracles, or that Mary even did that? Isn't it interesting that about the ONLY thing we are told about His childhood was that Mary did not yet believe?:

Luke 2:48-50 : 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

In addition, I can't believe you are seriously suggesting (if you are) that John 2:3 counts as Mary encouraging Jesus to perform a miracle. :) Mary says: "They have no more wine." That's it. It is pure invention to suggest that this meant Mary was encouraging Jesus to wave His hands and produce some from thin air. Biblically, we have no idea if Mary "got it" at this point.

Excellent post, FK. Ninety-nine percent of what the RC church teaches about Mary is fiction.

And all of it detracts from the glory that is due the Triune God.

11,733 posted on 03/22/2007 5:06:19 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; HarleyD; Mad Dawg; Quix; kawaii; kosta50

Gee, FK, isn't it just a bit disingenuous, even by one who doesn't read Greek, to leave out the rest of the passage?

"And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to Him: They have no wine.

And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.

His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever He shall say to you, do ye.

Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.

Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it.

2:9. And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water: the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,

And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now.

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested His glory. And His disciples believed in Him."

Now FK, it seems to me clear, even in so sorry a tongue for matters spiritual as English, that the Theotokos expected, no knew, that He would do something about the wine situation. It seems also perfectly plain that He wasn't ready to perform miracles and that He was "snappish" to His mother...but He did turn the water into fine wine, didn't He, and at his mother's suggestion, a suggestion He clearly understood.


11,734 posted on 03/22/2007 5:13:20 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; Mad Dawg; Quix; kawaii; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg
Mary did not yet believe

Finding Jesus in the Temple:

48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business? 50 And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart.

Believe she did:

38 ... Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.

45 And blessed art thou [Mary] that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. 46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. 51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: 55 As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

(Luke 1)

What the finding Jesus episode tells us that Mary did not understand (v.50). It tells us that Christ was obedient to Joseph and Mary (v. 51). And it tells us that Mary's faith never failed her despite the inability to understand: "his mother kept all these words in her heart". In this episode the Gospel teaches us, through the example of the Blessed Mother of God, to seek and believe Christ before we understand Him.

It is pure invention to suggest that this meant Mary was encouraging Jesus to wave His hands and produce some from thin air. Biblically, we have no idea if Mary "got it" at this point.

This is approaching blasphemy in tone, although I am sure you did not mean it that way. It is also wrong in substance. This is the entire exchange between Mary and Jesus:

1 And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
From v. 4 we know that Jesus understood her as interceding for a miracle. I suggest you follow His lead and understand her speech to Jesus in the same way He did. From v. 5 we see that Mary "got it" perfectly well. When your pastor tells you that, never mind John 6:55, the Eucharist is not salvific, may this be your response too: "Whatsoever [Christ] shall say to you, do ye".

I do not need to remind you that the miracle did happen, involved not "thin air" but rather the two sacramental substances, water and wine, and Mary's faith we see in v.5 lead to the faith of many in v. 11.

The blindness to scripture you exhibit is a direct consequence of mariophobia.

11,758 posted on 03/23/2007 9:32:56 AM PDT by annalex
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