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To: fortheDeclaration
You guys really make me laugh.

Really? I was thinking the same thing about you. You try to explain away James VERY CLEAR writings (THREE TIMES I QUOTED we are not saved by faith alone!!!) by pointing me to Paul's writings to the Romans and Galatians? Give me a break. Even using those writings, nowhere does Paul say we are saved by faith alone.

However, I am addressing James, not Paul. All you are doing is throwing up smoke and mirrors trying to move the topic to another book and another writer. Why? Because it is crystal-clear that the Bible says we are saved by faith AND works. By going to some of Paul's more confusing writings, (as Peter notes in 2 Peter) you are trying to justify your theology by going beyond what Paul wrote.

Unfortunately for your point of view, anyone who can read James 2 will find that one is not saved by faith alone.

End of story.

Regards

11,543 posted on 03/20/2007 1:28:59 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; fortheDeclaration
Because it is crystal-clear that the Bible says we are saved by faith AND works.

Paul says Abraham was saved by faith when he believed God. James says Abraham was saved by works 17 years later when he offered up Isaac. When was Abraham actually saved?

11,565 posted on 03/21/2007 6:35:42 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: jo kus; HarleyD
You guys really make me laugh. Really? I was thinking the same thing about you. You try to explain away James VERY CLEAR writings (THREE TIMES I QUOTED we are not saved by faith alone!!!) by pointing me to Paul's writings to the Romans and Galatians? Give me a break. Even using those writings, nowhere does Paul say we are saved by faith alone.

Paul very clearly states that we are saved without any works,(Now to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteouness.(Rom.4:5) which means that we are saved by faith alone. (see also Gal.3:11)

Faith and works are like oil and water in regards to salvation, they do not mix.

Works are a result of salvation, not part of it.

However, I am addressing James, not Paul. All you are doing is throwing up smoke and mirrors trying to move the topic to another book and another writer. Why? Because it is crystal-clear that the Bible says we are saved by faith AND works. By going to some of Paul's more confusing writings, (as Peter notes in 2 Peter) you are trying to justify your theology by going beyond what Paul wrote.

Those writings are not the confusing ones that Peter was talking about.

Peter was talking about the mystery that was revealed only to Paul regarding the Church being the union of both Jew and Gentile into one Body (Eph.3) in union with Christ.

As for James, he brings up two examples in James 2.

Both show their faith to mankind by what they do.

Unfortunately for your point of view, anyone who can read James 2 will find that one is not saved by faith alone. End of story.

Anyone who can read the Book of Romans and Galatians will see that one is saved by faith alone (without works).

The only way you reach a different conclusion in James is by dropping its context and ignoring what Paul wrote as you have done.

As I stated in my first post and you have proven it, you will not address what Paul writes.

It is clear that you would rather go to hell misunderstanding James then go to heaven understanding Paul.

4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. works Cf. James 2:24. These are two aspects of one truth. Paul speaks of that which justifies man before God, viz.: faith alone, wholly apart from works; James of the proof before men, that he who professes to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees--faith; James of what men see--works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration from Genesis 15:6 James from Genesis 22:1-19. James' key phrase is "ye see" James 2:24 for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works.

http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=004

12,010 posted on 03/26/2007 3:51:35 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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