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To: annalex; jo kus; kosta50; Kolokotronis; kawaii; blue-duncan; wmfights; HarleyD; Blogger
I would not quote from the Deuterocanonical in argument with a Protestant for the same reason I would not quote from the Vatican documents, -- because it is not an authority you recognize.

But FR Catholics, and especially the Orthodox, quote liberally from the Fathers. If Tradition is either equal, or nearly so, to the scriptures then it should all be the same. When you all do quote from the Fathers, Protestants here do not cry foul. Most of the time we simply answer from scripture. No problem. Sometimes, we also quote from our writers, knowing they carry no special weight with you, and you answer accordingly. No problem. We would just treat quotes from the Deuteros in the same way.

11,321 posted on 03/14/2007 2:48:26 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; kosta50; Kolokotronis; kawaii; blue-duncan; wmfights; HarleyD; Blogger
The quotes from the Fathers serve two purposes: to show that the Catholic/Orthodox Church is the historical Christian Church and to elaborate the point.

I generally don't quote as much from the Old Testament, because the disagreements with Protestantism center around the New Testament. When I do, it is to refute some bizarre interpretation offered by a Protestant poster, so it is naturally not from the Deuterocanon.

I remember myself quoting from Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 15 on Free Will, following Aquinas. The Maccabees are standard prooftext for prayers for the dead and therefore purgatory, see, for example, The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus , especially post 20.

11,322 posted on 03/14/2007 4:09:59 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex
But FR Catholics, and especially the Orthodox, quote liberally from the Fathers. If Tradition is either equal, or nearly so, to the scriptures then it should all be the same. When you all do quote from the Fathers, Protestants here do not cry foul. Most of the time we simply answer from scripture. No problem. Sometimes, we also quote from our writers, knowing they carry no special weight with you, and you answer accordingly. No problem. We would just treat quotes from the Deuteros in the same way.

All well and good - except that you are using a false premise to "prove" that the Deuterocannonicals are not Scriptural. According to you, because we do not cite them, they must not be of importance to us. This is a false premise, because I have yet to see someone cite Philemon or Obediah... Jesus Himself did not cite from a number of books from the OT. So this line of reasoning that you have presented is a faulty one.

Would it make a difference to you if I DID cite the Deuterocanonicals more often? I doubt it.

And to be honest, citing Calvin does little for me personally. He was a heretic who has led many countless astray on his false theology.

Regards

11,324 posted on 03/14/2007 5:40:35 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis; kawaii; blue-duncan; wmfights; HarleyD
But FR Catholics, and especially the Orthodox, quote liberally from the Fathers. If Tradition is either equal, or nearly so, to the scriptures then it should all be the same

The Fathers are not Holy Tradition. They are not infallible. The Scriptures, the Ecumenical Councils and the Liturgical life of the Church express one and the same infallible truth, are inseparable from each other and represent three expressions of the faith once delivered and believed from the beginning.

The Fathers play a role only in their consensus, not individually. That to which the Father consented is what the Church considers the correct doctrine. Naturally, it is consistent with the Holy Tradition which is: the Bible, the Ecumenical Councils and the Liturgical life of the Church.

By referring to the Fathers, we know how the early Church treated issues that we deal with, how the early Church responded to heresies, how the early Church understood the Holy trinity and Christology, as well as how it understood the Scripture (based on commentaries of the Fathers).

Through Fathers we also learn of some of their own theologoumenna (hypotheses) which did not necessarily become doctrine because there was no consensus on them. The Fathers are our eyes and ears and mindset of the earliest Church, and also a measuring stick as to whether we profess the same faith they did. That is our only assurance that the Church has not changed, or re-invented itself.

11,326 posted on 03/14/2007 7:10:12 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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