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To: Forest Keeper; annalex
Alex: Based on what scripture? "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2)

FK: Faith is salvific based on Eph. 2:8-9, among others. ... This is also in James 2:

Looks like you will have to explain the discrepancy, and also with Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

The idea is that faith is required, and so are works, but neither is sufficient by itself.

11,308 posted on 03/14/2007 8:19:31 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; annalex
Looks like you will have to explain the discrepancy, and also with Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." The idea is that faith is required, and so are works, but neither is sufficient by itself.

What discrepancy? :) I think the difference in our views is in the separateness of the concepts of faith and works. I think you all see them as very different things. Over here there is faith, and way over there are works. One key point is that you believe it is possible to have true faith, but to not do works, thus forfeiting salvation or theosis. We do not think that is possible. We see works as an included component of true faith.

In some of Paul's writings, he focuses on the main element, faith. Here it is understood that he means true faith and does not break it down. In some of James' writings, he does break it down and distinguishes between true and false, or claimed faith. James says that without works a claimed faith is false. We agree.

While Paul also speaks of the importance of doing works, I see Rom. 2:13 as an admonition to the Jews. He who keeps the law perfectly will be justified. I think Paul is trying to show them that no one can do that. This fits in with Paul's central message that faith is the absolute key to salvation.

11,330 posted on 03/15/2007 1:31:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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