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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
That doesn't follow. God does everything with a purpose:

That doesn't describe the method. If God is not partial, His selection is random. That makes God subject to chance, which we do not believe.

I don't know why God picks Fred but not Frank, but there is a reason. To think otherwise would be to diminish the power of His will and sovereignty

No one questioned His reason. We are discussiing the method of His impartiality.

And Dr. E. is absolutely right when she says: "We all believe our baptism as adopted children is a sign and seal of God's grace given to those who are His"

That's actually quite close to the Orthodox teaching (Baptism is adoption, by grace of the Holy Spirit, and one is never too old or too young to be baptized). Of course we don't know who is really adopted and who is not. Only God knows if the baptized is His or not.

The point remains that for "father-child", we would have to be seen as helpless young children, not grown adults

Well, the Bible compares them to sheep. Calling them children is implying the same essence. Only those who become Christ-like become His adopted children.

That's right, no amount of works will save us. However, we are not helpless as believers. When the Spirit indwells, we actually have access to a great deal of power, including the power of the word

FK, the way Reformed theology is presented (and I have no reason to believe it is otherwise) is basically like saying you are on a train going to a known destination.

No matter what you do on that train, even if you take controls of its engine, will change the track leading you to that destination. You may be able to speed up or slow down, but the train will get there sooner or later because 'it's on track' and the track will not change.

So, you can sleep, play games, read, cry, pray, whatever, you are not going to change the route. You are on the train because of some impartial reason. Someone put you there.

We believe God gives everyone a ticket. There are also many false trains, trying to get you to climb aboard. You must believe the One who gave you the ticket to board only His train no matter what others may say.

Not only that, but our train makes frequent stops! At those stops you can decide to change trains or wait for a faster one or even get off the train altogether! Whether you stay on the right train will depend on your faith in the One who gave you the ticket.

11,094 posted on 02/24/2007 8:49:32 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; wmfights; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; Blogger
Only those who become Christ-like become His adopted children.

You have that backwards, Kosta. Those whom God has adopted from before the foundation of the world will become Christ-like, at a time of His choosing.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. " -- Acts 13:48

the way Reformed theology is presented (and I have no reason to believe it is otherwise) is basically like saying you are on a train going to a known destination.

Every man's life is like riding a bicycle on board a train. We think we're peddling to our destination all on our own, but the train is heading where God intends.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:-28

We believe God gives everyone a ticket.

No one can buy a ticket to heaven for themselves and all men are heading for a brick wall without a ticket. But God ordained from before the foundation of the world to freely give some men a ticket bought with the blood of Christ and that ticket will take them all the way home.

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -- 1 Peter 2:7-10


11,099 posted on 02/25/2007 12:42:39 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg
That doesn't describe the method. If God is not partial, His selection is random. That makes God subject to chance, which we do not believe.

This has you arguing that God IS partial, or else He is random? You then go on to say something about the method of impartiality. I don't think we are given the method, we just know that it is not based on human merit or deed.

Well, the Bible compares them to sheep. Calling them children is implying the same essence. Only those who become Christ-like become His adopted children.

This sounds like you are saying that God's adopted children have the same essence as God. I don't think you believe that. ....... Yes, the Bible compares them to sheep, and I think that choice is by no means an accident. Sheep have the reputation for being among the dumbest animals, and they certainly are among the most dependent. Sheep need to be led, more so than other animals. A sheep alone in a field is easy pickings for almost any predator. The early Christians would have easily understood the comparison. People are helpless and need God's leadership.

We believe God gives everyone a ticket. There are also many false trains, trying to get you to climb aboard. You must believe the One who gave you the ticket to board only His train no matter what others may say.

Under this, what distinguishes the person who uses his ticket for God's train from the others who choose the trains for hell? It seems like a no-brainer to me, so is it a matter of intelligence? Are we just smarter than everyone else? :)

Not only that, but our train makes frequent stops! At those stops you can decide to change trains or wait for a faster one or even get off the train altogether! Whether you stay on the right train will depend on your faith in the One who gave you the ticket.

That sounds pretty frightening to me. Since God "could" have a non-stop trip, why do you suppose He chooses to make frequent stops? With the stops, all we can do is lose in comparison. In addition, I suppose that all Jesus' sacrifice was good for was to give us the original ticket. According to your analogy, satan gave us tickets too.

11,103 posted on 02/25/2007 6:03:03 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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