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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg
And if this deity (because it's not the God I know) is not partial, as you say, it must have made the choices at random! So now we have an enee, menee, minee, mo approach to salvation...

That doesn't follow. God does everything with a purpose:

Rom 8:28-30 : 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I don't know why God picks Fred but not Frank, but there is a reason. To think otherwise would be to diminish the power of His will and sovereignty.

Why not [baptize] at the age of 5, or 2 or infants? Who decides what is the 'right' age?

To Baptists, the right age varies from person to person. It is that age at which someone is able to give at least a rudimentary testimony, evidencing faith. The earliest I have ever witnessed was at age 6.

And Dr. E. is absolutely right when she says: "As far as baptism goes, Reformed of all persuasions do not believe in the error of baptismal regeneration. We all believe our baptism as adopted children is a sign and seal of God's grace given to those who are His. Like the Lord's Supper, our baptism brings us closer to Him." Baptism is very important, but it is not salvific.

It's like someone calling his moron a moron. It says a lot about the husband who chose her. You are saying God either made us trash or allowed us to become trash.

I don't think it's the same thing. I would agree with you if we were comparing humans with other humans. But we are not. God is so much higher that there really is no truly accurate comparison. The point remains that for "father-child", we would have to be seen as helpless young children, not grown adults.

We are helpless regardless, according to the Reformed theology. God already decided what's going to happen with all of us, so no amount of praying, crying or reading will change that.

That's right, no amount of works will save us. However, we are not helpless as believers. When the Spirit indwells, we actually have access to a great deal of power, including the power of the word.

Rom 8:31 : 31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us , who can be against us?

11,085 posted on 02/24/2007 5:52:47 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
That doesn't follow. God does everything with a purpose:

That doesn't describe the method. If God is not partial, His selection is random. That makes God subject to chance, which we do not believe.

I don't know why God picks Fred but not Frank, but there is a reason. To think otherwise would be to diminish the power of His will and sovereignty

No one questioned His reason. We are discussiing the method of His impartiality.

And Dr. E. is absolutely right when she says: "We all believe our baptism as adopted children is a sign and seal of God's grace given to those who are His"

That's actually quite close to the Orthodox teaching (Baptism is adoption, by grace of the Holy Spirit, and one is never too old or too young to be baptized). Of course we don't know who is really adopted and who is not. Only God knows if the baptized is His or not.

The point remains that for "father-child", we would have to be seen as helpless young children, not grown adults

Well, the Bible compares them to sheep. Calling them children is implying the same essence. Only those who become Christ-like become His adopted children.

That's right, no amount of works will save us. However, we are not helpless as believers. When the Spirit indwells, we actually have access to a great deal of power, including the power of the word

FK, the way Reformed theology is presented (and I have no reason to believe it is otherwise) is basically like saying you are on a train going to a known destination.

No matter what you do on that train, even if you take controls of its engine, will change the track leading you to that destination. You may be able to speed up or slow down, but the train will get there sooner or later because 'it's on track' and the track will not change.

So, you can sleep, play games, read, cry, pray, whatever, you are not going to change the route. You are on the train because of some impartial reason. Someone put you there.

We believe God gives everyone a ticket. There are also many false trains, trying to get you to climb aboard. You must believe the One who gave you the ticket to board only His train no matter what others may say.

Not only that, but our train makes frequent stops! At those stops you can decide to change trains or wait for a faster one or even get off the train altogether! Whether you stay on the right train will depend on your faith in the One who gave you the ticket.

11,094 posted on 02/24/2007 8:49:32 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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