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To: Forest Keeper; wmfights; Kolokotronis; klossg; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
This makes "free" a useful adjective here

If you say so, FK, useful maybe (for those who may doubt), but necessarily — definitely not.

God gave us life as well. We don't call it 'free gift (of life).' God gives us faith; we don't call it 'free gift (of faith).' Life an faith are something we actually have, grace is a pardon (unwarranted mercy) that we benefit from but don't have. It's not a state like freedom (which we don't call 'free gift' but an 'inalienable right').

Calling an engagement ring a 'gift' is also one of those 'oxymorons' because that act comes with conditional expectations. It's a 'deposit' a 'claim.' For some reason, man gives it to the woman and not the other way around, and women are not complaining. :)

A gift of a diamond ring would be a gift only if it were given to someone for no reason whatsoever. An engagement ring is a 'promissory item' usually but not always without a legal contract. It is given because someone wants something in return for it. It is therefore not a gift.

10,181 posted on 02/13/2007 7:18:28 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; wmfights; Kolokotronis; klossg; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; ...
What are your opinions on this James Akin FAITH ALONE thread?

I find that it is the language and meaning of the words in our discussion that puts us on opposite sides of a Sunni/Shiite like social-faith relationship. How a Catholic understands the word FAITH and how a protestant understands the words FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY is the crux of the discussion. I can believe in Faith Alone if it is defined as put forward by the article of that thread?

Anyone for agreement on this? How about mild, violent disagreement? I could live with agreeing on the differences in definitions of the words between us.
10,683 posted on 02/16/2007 6:06:56 AM PST by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Kolokotronis; klossg; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; blue-duncan; ...
God gave us life as well. We don't call it 'free gift (of life).' God gives us faith; we don't call it 'free gift (of faith).' Life and faith are something we actually have, grace is a pardon (unwarranted mercy) that we benefit from but don't have.

What? Putting the "life" part aside for a moment, you don't think faith is a free gift? Faith is just something we "have"? If faith isn't a gift from God then we must have ginned it up independently of God. Is this how you see it? Besides the obvious Eph. 2:8-9, see also:

Rom 12:3 : 3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

1 Tim 1:13-14 : 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

No, we owe all of any faith we have to God. We don't simply "have" it.

[Grace is] not a state like freedom (which we don't call 'free gift' but an 'inalienable right').

Well, it's clear you can't be talking about spiritual freedom because the Bible is clear that it is a gift, unless one believes that salvation is earned. But even with physical freedom, calling it a right as opposed to a gift belies the Founders intentions, assuming that's what you were referring to. :

[Declaration of Independence:] ... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The Founders were absolutely correct. Any "rights" that we have which are unalienable are God-gifted rights. We did nothing to earn these rights, they were given by God in His sovereignty. It is the same with grace, and it is the same with faith (and it is the same with life itself).

A gift of a diamond ring would be a gift only if it were given to someone for no reason whatsoever. An engagement ring is a 'promissory item' usually but not always without a legal contract. It is given because someone wants something in return for it. It is therefore not a gift.

You wanna sell that to your wife? :) I would be injured if I tried. To avoid injury I would tell my wife that I loved her so much that all I wanted in the world was to marry her. Even in my youthful poverty, it was by God's grace that I scraped enough cash together to buy her the most beautiful ring I could as a small token of the love I had for her. Even if I didn't have the means for a ring, I still would have asked her to marry me. That makes it a gift, and nobody gets hurt. :)

10,750 posted on 02/17/2007 1:36:38 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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