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Where your explanation falls, however, is in the way you have explained the election part and couple that with the verses from +John's gospel. For example, you write: "Yet, in His design of things He allows the ungodly to exist to teach us about sin, wrath, holiness, and mercy." To what end, B? If the elect are already in and aren't getting out, what's the point of the lesson?

Kolo,I think what I am sensing in you is that you fear because we believe is salvation by grace through faith alone that there is no place for works whatsoever. That you think that since the elect are saved and can't be lost, then they will sit back on their laurels and wait for their death or the return of Christ. That nothing really matters in Scripture. Here though, Kolo, your fears are wrong.

As a Christian for some 30 years, I have been a member of several churches. I have been a member of Reformed churches and Arminian churches. The Arminians were closer to what you are referring to than the Reformed ever were. The Arminians were all about "Get them down that aisle, have them say the prayer, and get them saved. Even if you have to go down to one of them and tell them 'it's time', getting them down that aisle is the only thing that is important." I do not exagerate with that statement. It was done. The people of the church were by and large spiritual babes who all had the one focus, getting someone to say the sinner's prayer (little thought being given to whether or not the pray-er actually believed what he/she was saying).

The Reformed churches, on the other hand, have been very studious of God's Word. I would submit that this is for 3 reasons.

1)Getting us saved is only one small part of the equation that God elected us for. Salvation is only part of the great commmission. Discipleship is a key part of what God planned for us from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 28:19 (NASB)"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was God's plan for us to do this. To make disciples you must delve into God's Word- else, it is your word alone which is worth no more than any other person's word.

2)We study Scripture for our own edification. Kolo, I can not tell you how much meditating upon the grace of God through divine election blesses my soul. Rather than creating pride in me, it creates humility and love for my Lord. He saved ME! He drew ME! And, He has a plan for ME! This is the God of the Universe we are talking about, and that He would reach out to me, a sinner, and send His Son to die for me is more than my heart can fully comprehend in all of its greatness. As a result of the LOVE that Christ gives me for Him, I want to know all that I can about Him and want to know about how I may please Him. He is my God. He is my Savior. He revealed Himself to me in His Word. Would I not be an ungrateful twit if I decided 'oh, Gee, I've got the fire insurance now. Thanks God, I'll just be living my life the way I want now. See ya in heaven.' Such are not the thoughts of an elect person. That person has a heart-felt genuine desire for knowing Jesus more and wants to please Him.

Finally, why do we study? Because the Word of God is key in drawing others to Him. Would they come if we didn't preach/teach them? If we were silent, the rocks would cry out. But what a blessing to be a part of God's drawing others to Himself. We study to have a ready answer for the hope within us in order that others may know the same God that we know. Kolo, I don't know how many are elect. As Spurgeon once said, God doesn't paint a yellow stripe down the center of each elect person's body to distinguish them from the lost. Rather, than even worry about this aspect which only God can know, I am like my Missionary professor who was a 5 point Calvinist. Rather than quelling a missionary zeal in the way that we know that salvation is already a done deal for the elect, we preach and teach the gospel with a zeal KNOWING with assurance that there will be people who will respond. In the Orthodox system, there is no such assurance. But, in the Calvinist system we KNOW that God elected and will draw many. And, therefore we labor knowing that our labor will not be in vain.

In the end, it is not about us. It isn't about well, I'm saved now so I don't have to do anything. Would you still be saved if you took that tact? Yes you would. But Christ saved us in order to become His workmen. We work, we study Scripture, we grow more Christ-like because it is what He designed us for. And we are blessed indeed.

"Kolo,I think what I am sensing in you is that you fear because we believe is salvation by grace through faith alone that there is no place for works whatsoever."

No, I didn't think that at all. I do think your concept of what constitutes "works" is odd, but that's another issue.

"That you think that since the elect are saved and can't be lost, then they will sit back on their laurels and wait for their death or the return of Christ."

Yes, that seems a likely result of your theology and yet it is apparent that at least good Protestants don't do that at all. That has me baffled if your theology holds to predestination and not to foreknowledge as Orthodoxy does. My following comments presuppose a predestination theology. God's foreknowledge of who will attain theosis and who won't I take as a given, to the extent, as I have said, that we can actually understand what God's foreknowledge is.

"Getting us saved is only one small part of the equation that God elected us for. Salvation is only part of the great commmission. Discipleship is a key part of what God planned for us from before the foundation of the world."

"Matthew 28:19 (NASB)"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was God's plan for us to do this."

I assume God has His reasons for this, but clearly in your theology it cannot be to bring people to Christ for santification since the elect are in from before all time and all the preaching in the world won't profit the damned one bit. And yet it is exactly this end, bringing people to Christ, which is the purpose of the Great Commission, is it not?

"As a result of the LOVE that Christ gives me for Him, I want to know all that I can about Him and want to know about how I may please Him. He is my God. He is my Savior. He revealed Himself to me in His Word. Would I not be an ungrateful twit if I decided 'oh, Gee, I've got the fire insurance now. Thanks God, I'll just be living my life the way I want now. See ya in heaven.' Such are not the thoughts of an elect person. That person has a heart-felt genuine desire for knowing Jesus more and wants to please Him."

In your theology, however, none of this matters for santification or being saved, if I understand you correctly. The elect are the elect. Reading scripture, learning all you can about God is surely edifying, but by definition it can contribute nothing at all to where you end up.Do I understand you to say that the scripture is given to the elect because being the elect they will want to know about God for their personal satisfaction? No doubt, having come to understand that God loves the elect more than any earthly father loves his children, the elect will want to please God. Are you saying this makes a difference to God? If so, in what way? Is the "reverse" true, which is to say, if the unelect read the scripture and try to please God they will always fail to do so. Clearly personal edification is no more salvific to the elect than to the damned and in any event, God doesn't "need" to be pleased by any of us.

"Finally, why do we study? Because the Word of God is key in drawing others to Him. Would they come if we didn't preach/teach them? If we were silent, the rocks would cry out. But what a blessing to be a part of God's drawing others to Himself. We study to have a ready answer for the hope within us in order that others may know the same God that we know."

Again, the elect are the elect. They don't need your preaching or mine or anyone's to be the elect. They only need God's election.

"Rather than quelling a missionary zeal in the way that we know that salvation is already a done deal for the elect, we preach and teach the gospel with a zeal KNOWING with assurance that there will be people who will respond."

But the damned can't respond and the elect are the elect. Their "response" is in no way salvific. Monergism says that there is no response, just the action of God. What good is the preaching?

"In the Orthodox system, there is no such assurance."

You've got that worng. We absolutely know that theosis is found within The Church. What we don't know is who will attain it or whether it can be attained outside The Church.

"In the end, it is not about us. It isn't about well, I'm saved now so I don't have to do anything. Would you still be saved if you took that tact? Yes you would."

I suppose that if one were to attain perfect theosis in this life, which we believe to be rare but not at all unheard of, your comment would be true. There are stories of saints like this. They reached a point where they didn't have to DO anything, though they did pray unceasingly. But I believe that when you say "saved" you mean something quite different from what I mean when I say attained perfect theosis. +Mary of Egypt is a good example of what I mean about someone who has attained theosis in this life. Here's a link to her life by Pat. Sophronius of Jerusalem:

http://www.monachos.net/library/Mary_of_Egypt,_Complete_Life_by_Patriarch_Sophronius_of_Jerusalem

The works of the Fathers, especially the Desert Fathers, have many stories of people like this and to this day there are such people, several at Mount Athos, others in various places around the globe. In Western hagiography, +Francis of Assisi is a sort of example of this state.

"But Christ saved us in order to become His workmen. We work, we study Scripture, we grow more Christ-like because it is what He designed us for. And we are blessed indeed.

There is nothing Holy Orthodoxy would not endorse in the foregoing but we do believe there is more in God's plan. Its interesting that you would make the above comment. Just this morning at the Divine Liturgy I was the one who intoned the Epistle in Greek. As I did so, I thought of you, honestly, when I chanted this:

"Οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐλεύθερος; οὐκ εἰμὶ ἀπόστολος; οὐχὶ ᾽Ιησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἑώρακα; οὐ τὸ ἔργον μου ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ; εἰ ἄλλοις οὐκ εἰμὶ ἀπόστολος, ἀλλά γε ὑμῖν εἰμι· ἡ γὰρ σφραγίς μου τῆς ἀποστολῆς ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ."

"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."

For us, this is Judgment Sunday. The Gospel reading was Matt 25:31-46. Appropriate to our discussion, wouldn't you say? Here are the Apolytikion and Kontakia from the Divine Liturgy today which coincidentally are likewise quite appropriate:

Resurrectional Apolytikion in the Second Tone

When You descended unto death, O Lord who yourself are immortal Life, then did You mortify Hades by the lightning flash of Your Divinity. Also when You raised the dead from the netherworld, all the Powers of the heavens were crying out: O Giver of life, Christ our God, glory be to You.

Resurrectional Kontakion in the Second Tone

You rose from the tomb, O Savior all-powerful, and Hades beheld the marvel and was struck with fear, and the dead were rising up, and creation beholds and rejoices with You, and Adam is also exultant; O my Savior, and the world ever sings Your praise.

Seasonal Kontakion in the First Tone

O God, when You come upon the earth in glory, the whole world will tremble. A river of fire will bring all before Your Judgment Seat and the books will be opened, and everything in secret will become public. At that time, deliver me from the fire which never dies, and enable me to stand by Your right hand, O Judge most just.