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To: Blogger; kosta50; annalex
"Kolo,I think what I am sensing in you is that you fear because we believe is salvation by grace through faith alone that there is no place for works whatsoever."

No, I didn't think that at all. I do think your concept of what constitutes "works" is odd, but that's another issue.

"That you think that since the elect are saved and can't be lost, then they will sit back on their laurels and wait for their death or the return of Christ."

Yes, that seems a likely result of your theology and yet it is apparent that at least good Protestants don't do that at all. That has me baffled if your theology holds to predestination and not to foreknowledge as Orthodoxy does. My following comments presuppose a predestination theology. God's foreknowledge of who will attain theosis and who won't I take as a given, to the extent, as I have said, that we can actually understand what God's foreknowledge is.

"Getting us saved is only one small part of the equation that God elected us for. Salvation is only part of the great commmission. Discipleship is a key part of what God planned for us from before the foundation of the world."

OK

"Matthew 28:19 (NASB)"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was God's plan for us to do this."

I assume God has His reasons for this, but clearly in your theology it cannot be to bring people to Christ for santification since the elect are in from before all time and all the preaching in the world won't profit the damned one bit. And yet it is exactly this end, bringing people to Christ, which is the purpose of the Great Commission, is it not?

"As a result of the LOVE that Christ gives me for Him, I want to know all that I can about Him and want to know about how I may please Him. He is my God. He is my Savior. He revealed Himself to me in His Word. Would I not be an ungrateful twit if I decided 'oh, Gee, I've got the fire insurance now. Thanks God, I'll just be living my life the way I want now. See ya in heaven.' Such are not the thoughts of an elect person. That person has a heart-felt genuine desire for knowing Jesus more and wants to please Him."

In your theology, however, none of this matters for santification or being saved, if I understand you correctly. The elect are the elect. Reading scripture, learning all you can about God is surely edifying, but by definition it can contribute nothing at all to where you end up.Do I understand you to say that the scripture is given to the elect because being the elect they will want to know about God for their personal satisfaction? No doubt, having come to understand that God loves the elect more than any earthly father loves his children, the elect will want to please God. Are you saying this makes a difference to God? If so, in what way? Is the "reverse" true, which is to say, if the unelect read the scripture and try to please God they will always fail to do so. Clearly personal edification is no more salvific to the elect than to the damned and in any event, God doesn't "need" to be pleased by any of us.

"Finally, why do we study? Because the Word of God is key in drawing others to Him. Would they come if we didn't preach/teach them? If we were silent, the rocks would cry out. But what a blessing to be a part of God's drawing others to Himself. We study to have a ready answer for the hope within us in order that others may know the same God that we know."

Again, the elect are the elect. They don't need your preaching or mine or anyone's to be the elect. They only need God's election.

"Rather than quelling a missionary zeal in the way that we know that salvation is already a done deal for the elect, we preach and teach the gospel with a zeal KNOWING with assurance that there will be people who will respond."

But the damned can't respond and the elect are the elect. Their "response" is in no way salvific. Monergism says that there is no response, just the action of God. What good is the preaching?

"In the Orthodox system, there is no such assurance."

You've got that worng. We absolutely know that theosis is found within The Church. What we don't know is who will attain it or whether it can be attained outside The Church.

"In the end, it is not about us. It isn't about well, I'm saved now so I don't have to do anything. Would you still be saved if you took that tact? Yes you would."

I suppose that if one were to attain perfect theosis in this life, which we believe to be rare but not at all unheard of, your comment would be true. There are stories of saints like this. They reached a point where they didn't have to DO anything, though they did pray unceasingly. But I believe that when you say "saved" you mean something quite different from what I mean when I say attained perfect theosis. +Mary of Egypt is a good example of what I mean about someone who has attained theosis in this life. Here's a link to her life by Pat. Sophronius of Jerusalem:

http://www.monachos.net/library/Mary_of_Egypt,_Complete_Life_by_Patriarch_Sophronius_of_Jerusalem

The works of the Fathers, especially the Desert Fathers, have many stories of people like this and to this day there are such people, several at Mount Athos, others in various places around the globe. In Western hagiography, +Francis of Assisi is a sort of example of this state.

"But Christ saved us in order to become His workmen. We work, we study Scripture, we grow more Christ-like because it is what He designed us for. And we are blessed indeed.

There is nothing Holy Orthodoxy would not endorse in the foregoing but we do believe there is more in God's plan. Its interesting that you would make the above comment. Just this morning at the Divine Liturgy I was the one who intoned the Epistle in Greek. As I did so, I thought of you, honestly, when I chanted this:

"Οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐλεύθερος; οὐκ εἰμὶ ἀπόστολος; οὐχὶ ᾽Ιησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἑώρακα; οὐ τὸ ἔργον μου ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ; εἰ ἄλλοις οὐκ εἰμὶ ἀπόστολος, ἀλλά γε ὑμῖν εἰμι· ἡ γὰρ σφραγίς μου τῆς ἀποστολῆς ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἐν κυρίῳ."

"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."

For us, this is Judgment Sunday. The Gospel reading was Matt 25:31-46. Appropriate to our discussion, wouldn't you say? Here are the Apolytikion and Kontakia from the Divine Liturgy today which coincidentally are likewise quite appropriate:

Resurrectional Apolytikion in the Second Tone

When You descended unto death, O Lord who yourself are immortal Life, then did You mortify Hades by the lightning flash of Your Divinity. Also when You raised the dead from the netherworld, all the Powers of the heavens were crying out: O Giver of life, Christ our God, glory be to You.

Resurrectional Kontakion in the Second Tone

You rose from the tomb, O Savior all-powerful, and Hades beheld the marvel and was struck with fear, and the dead were rising up, and creation beholds and rejoices with You, and Adam is also exultant; O my Savior, and the world ever sings Your praise.

Seasonal Kontakion in the First Tone

O God, when You come upon the earth in glory, the whole world will tremble. A river of fire will bring all before Your Judgment Seat and the books will be opened, and everything in secret will become public. At that time, deliver me from the fire which never dies, and enable me to stand by Your right hand, O Judge most just.

10,079 posted on 02/11/2007 1:31:04 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
"Kolo,I think what I am sensing in you is that you fear because we believe is salvation by grace through faith alone that there is no place for works whatsoever."

No, I didn't think that at all. I do think your concept of what constitutes "works" is odd, but that's another issue.

No, lets explore that a little bit. When I speak of works, I mean actions or deeds which a human does. In terms of actually "getting one saved", works do not play a part. In terms of "keeping one saved", they do not play a part. In terms of the Christian life, they are a big part. It is what we were saved for. Again, read and meditate upon Ephesians 2:8-10. I am not saying that works have no role. I am just saying they are not salvific.

"That you think that since the elect are saved and can't be lost, then they will sit back on their laurels and wait for their death or the return of Christ."

Yes, that seems a likely result of your theology and yet it is apparent that at least good Protestants don't do that at all. That has me baffled if your theology holds to predestination and not to foreknowledge as Orthodoxy does.

Perhaps it will help you to think about the reason why we serve. For those who believe works are salvific, there is always an element of their work that has some motive of "self" within. In orthodoxy, one works in order to attain the Christ-likeness which brings salvation. Am I correct there? If I am, then your works are a mixture of pleasing God and saving self. For the Reformed Protestant, works follow salvation. They are done in devotion and obedience to the Lord that saved us. We don't worry about losing our soul for the Holy Spirit is our guarantee seal. (2 Corinthians 1:21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) And, yet, we obey - because we don't want to displease God (because we love Him), and because he chastens those whom he loves. His chastening is done with love behind it, but it doesn't mean that it is unpainful. God has a way of correcting His children's behavior as the shepherd corrects the sheep when it goes astray. So, why do we work? Because we should. Because HE wants us to. Because He has given us the desire to do these things.

Now, does it matter in sanctification? Sanctification is something which occurs as the result of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives; yet, the works He has enabled us to do "work" to accomplish this in our lives. Remember, Ephesians 2:10 - we are HIS WORKMANSHIP created to do GOOD WORKS. To question this based upon some understanding of Reformed theology is make the false claim that Reformed theology is ONLY ABOUT the TULIP. The TULIP is a basic formulation of foundational beliefs about God but it is far from the full definition of our faith.

23I call God as my witness that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth.My following comments presuppose a predestination theology. God's foreknowledge of who will attain theosis and who won't I take as a given, to the extent, as I have said, that we can actually understand what God's foreknowledge is.
The Bible says that God chose us in Him. You would say that is according to His foreknowledge of what we would do. The Bible says that NONE seek Him. The Bible says NONE can come unless the Spirit draw them. The Bible says we are GIVEN to Christ by the Father and that Christ won't lose those whom the Father has given Him. Further, He says that he doesn't pray for the world but for the one's that the Father gave Him. Our salvation is not based upon what we would do, for we would choose against God. We were dead in our sins, not just sick. Our hearts were set against God. We would not have been saved had He not chosen us. Read and Re-read Romans 9. Romans 9-11 is all about our salvation and the blindness in part of the Jews until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. It may be difficult for you to understand, and maybe even disturbing at first. But once you understand what God did and that God is Sovereign and just, it really becomes a sweet savor.

"Matthew 28:19 (NASB)"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was God's plan for us to do this."

I assume God has His reasons for this, but clearly in your theology it cannot be to bring people to Christ for santification since the elect are in from before all time and all the preaching in the world won't profit the damned one bit. And yet it is exactly this end, bringing people to Christ, which is the purpose of the Great Commission, is it not?

God chose to bring men to Himself through the foolishness of preaching. WE are the means which He does His drawing. True, if we didn't do it the Rocks would cry out in our place. But it would be the heighth of ungratefulness to just take our salvation and not want to please the God who gave it by participating in His plan where He wants us to participate. While we as children are sometimes disobedience, there will always be the fruit in the life of the Christian that he/she WANTS TO please the Father. Why? Because we love Him. That's all. It is the law of love. It is the law of faith. It is the SPIRIT that was behind the written law rather than the dry emotionless letter. We do things because we love Him and we obey the great commission because He asked us to do it.

"As a result of the LOVE that Christ gives me for Him, I want to know all that I can about Him and want to know about how I may please Him. He is my God. He is my Savior. He revealed Himself to me in His Word. Would I not be an ungrateful twit if I decided 'oh, Gee, I've got the fire insurance now. Thanks God, I'll just be living my life the way I want now. See ya in heaven.' Such are not the thoughts of an elect person. That person has a heart-felt genuine desire for knowing Jesus more and wants to please Him."

In your theology, however, none of this matters for santification or being saved, if I understand you correctly. The elect are the elect. Reading scripture, learning all you can about God is surely edifying, but by definition it can contribute nothing at all to where you end up.Do I understand you to say that the scripture is given to the elect because being the elect they will want to know about God for their personal satisfaction? No doubt, having come to understand that God loves the elect more than any earthly father loves his children, the elect will want to please God. Are you saying this makes a difference to God? If so, in what way?

It pleased Him to set it up that way. It was His will and desire. And He's sovereign God. He wanted us to understand Him in ways that we couldn't have if He had just written it in a book. He wanted us to love Him not because we felt we had to, but because we wanted to. Because we actually "get" who He is (at least in part). To know Jesus is to Love Jesus. Yet, there are some things we never could have known had God not set up things the way that He set them up.

Is the "reverse" true, which is to say, if the unelect read the scripture and try to please God they will always fail to do so.
The Unelect will not try to please God, period. Their hearts are set against Him. Rather, they may put up some form of what they "call" god. It will be a god in their image as they want Him to be. Not the true God. The unelect want NOTHING to do with the real God.

Clearly personal edification is no more salvific to the elect than to the damned and in any event, God doesn't "need" to be pleased by any of us.
Why did God create us? It was His desire to do so. He desired our company. And, regardless if it is a "need" or a desire, it is something we should all strive for because He is deserving of all we have to offer and then some. Evidentally, personal pleasure is a motivation for God would you not agree? Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hbr 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

As to the Orthodox not knowing who will achieve Theosis, we Reformed Protestants don't know who, aside from our individual selves, has a true relationship with Jesus Christ either. In our view, though, it is not what is over the door of the church building that matters but what (specifically WHO) is in the heart. Salvation is not found in a specific church though I believe there are saved in most churches (a few cults who call themselves churches do not have correct doctrine concerning the salvific work and nature of Christ so I would not consider them Christians). It boils down to whether or not one has that personal relationship with Christ (so that we know that God leads us, teaches us, comforts us, draws us, corrects us, and loves us and we love Him). I don't care if one's intellectual theology was Reformed or not. If you have missed that, you've missed it all.
10,088 posted on 02/11/2007 9:11:55 PM PST by Blogger
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