Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Ah. The keystroke option.
However, indeed we will all be judged according to our works. The lost will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ according to their works and rejection of the light which God did give to them. The saved will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment according to the works that they have done for him verses those done for some other motivation. For the saved, the works are NOT SALVIFIC. They are what any rewards or lack thereof will be based on. There are also degrees of punishment for the lost in Hell, as indicated by Scripture.
James and Paul harmonize quite well. But, it is amazing that since they harmonize so well and since they are both saying exactly what you say your church teaches that when it comes time to quote one of the two it is James you pick. How is one saved? Ah, quote James. Don't quote Paul.
When Paul IS quoted, as in the case you have laid out,he is twisted as to appear to support the point of view of the Twister. Romans chapter 2 can NOT be taken in isolation. There is an entire book surrounding that chapter. The provide the interpretation for Romans 2. In Romans you find things such as this...
Romans 1
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
:30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 6: (A good chapter harmonizing Paul with James)
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7:
5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 9:
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 11
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
CHERRY PICKING of Scripture yields bad interpretation. I have just taken verses from all of Romans. There is a whole Bible surrounding that which supports our salvation by FAITH and not of works. Paul also speaks of works, but as the outpouring of the Spirit in our lives, not the way to get salvation.
Naw, if that were true the Jewish Bible would be 2/3rds New Testament.
Thanks. I didn't think I would be the only one dismayed at their ignorance.
The arrogance bothers me. Their interpretation is not an interpretation; but ours is?
By golly gum! Sola Scriptura is a fraud, I tell you! And I'm going to use Scripture alone to prove it to you! :P
But I would hate to keep score on these sad and evil things. We all blew it big time.
Circular argument.
Well, well, the church is the deciding authority on Scripture because Scripture says the church is the deciding authority. Better?
Yes, you have Paul's job and Stephen and James and others. Judaism and Christianity split - mutual agreement. I think we could say Judaism kicked out the Christians first, but eventually... it's two different religions with a common foundation.
As the apparent "sane head" in this conversation, I'll just let it go at that. You'll carry this to whatever end you want whether I speak or not. The fallacies in your debate will not be seen by you.
Gee, next thing you're going to tell me that I can't say that Mary is the Immaculate conception, because she proclaimed she was at the Immaculate conception and the Pope is infallible based upon his proclamation (and Mary's) that he was.
Tha last sentence here is either meaningless or does not follow, and the previous describes more or less the fact that we are judged, and therefore saved, by works.
But, as the verses you cited indicate, we are also saved by faith. We are not, however, saved by faith alone, just as St. James teaches.
quote James. Don't quote Paul
To counter a Pelagian, I'll quote St. Paul. To counter your particular heresy, I quote St. James.
The Chruch does not teach any "alone" we are not saved by works alone, and we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by faith working through love (Gal. 5:6).
From a biblical standpoint, your point is so, so, so obvious. Clearly the Bible teaches salvation by faith completely apart from works. But the problem you have in convincing a Catholic to look at the subject objectively is that anyone who proclaims the doctrine of salvation by faith without works is committing a mortal sin in the Catholic faith, as the Council of Trent has proclaimed an anathema upon any person who would make such a claim.
It is not as if these people cannot see that salvation is by faith alone apart from works, but that they cannot look! If they dare to look, then their souls are in danger of hell.
Debate is futile. Debate only works when both sides are willing to view the subject objectively. But if someone has a curse hanging over their head if they dare to look at the evidence and make up their own minds, then one cannot expect that person to be objective.
The theme of the Bible is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Nobody needed to hang a curse over my head for me to see that simple fact.
That's silly. I can and have "looked."
sheesh.
Wrong wrong wrong! Our sins were already judged. They are that which has condemned us. We are declared "Not guilty!" Why? Because of Christ. If we have no sin to our record, we are saved-period.
Micah 7:19: He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea
# Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
# Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
# Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
No mention of our works gaining our forgiveness.
John 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned...
Do NOT call condemned that which Christ Jesus Himself does not condemn.
Not objectively.
What would have happened to you if you had come to the conclusion that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone without works?
Could you still take communion? Would you not be subject to a curse from the Catholic Church?
All I can think is:
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
I'd say 2 Thess 2:7-12 may be more apropos. Either that or 2 Cor 4:3-4. Or Both.
sadly true
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