'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[annalex]

You cherry-picked while you should prooftext. How can Blogger be clearer?

[D-fendr]

To discuss philosophy and theology - or any subject really - requires a common language.

Transcend, physics, metaphysics, reductionism, objective reality and so on have specific meanings in these areas.

The logical operations that where used to produce the conclusion require machinery to support both the operations and the consciousness of conclusion. That is the objective reality.

No, I'm sorry, that's not objective reality as the term is properly used. I'm sorry, I don't see how to continue a discussion. It would take forever to define terms anew.

best regards and may God bless...

[kosta50]

wmfights: Saving Faith means your blessed with God's free gift of GRACE!

FK: You just happened to hit all the right buttons on one of my favorite subjects. :)

Isn't calling something a free gift an oxymoron?

[kosta50]

The scripture does not teach presumption. It teaches against it, see the parable of a publican and a pharisee praying

Not only does it teach against presumption, but its says "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[Blogger]

Cherry-picking scripture doesn't make it so either.

Annalex you are confusing the cause and the effect of our salvation. That's what it boils down to. We are saved by Christ alone. Nothing else. It is all of Him. Once we have truly been saved, we will then produce good works. If they do not produce good works, then they are not saved. If they do produce good works then they may or may not be saved. Many will come to Jesus in that day and say "have we not done many good works in your name?" But Jesus NEVER knew them. If the good works are meant for any other reason than our love of Jesus, then they are not acceptable. A true Christian will produce good works out of his love for Christ, not that which he hopes to gain from Christ (including salvation- as all of our righteousness is as filthy rags in that regard). So, for review, we are not saved by works - rather we are saved TO work.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

# Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ephesians 8: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

# 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Matthew 7
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Blogger]

Cherry-picking- taking one verse or a set of verses out of its context to try to prove a point.

Proof-texting- using the whole counsel of Scripture to support one's point.

There is a difference.

[HarleyD]

If anyone knew a Pelagian, it was Augustine. He could smell them a mile away.

With all due respect to Bishop Elias Minatios, his view is not grounded in scripture. You cannot become a "vessel of dishonor". God made all the vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor. What Bishop Minatios is trying to say is that you can overrule what God has designed.

But from other scripture we know, -- He is basing His election of the works of man.

Oh, brother. What heresy!!! God now base His salvation on how well someone lives their life. Well, throw out grace and mercy, we certainly don't need that!!!

Personally I would rethink this doctrine.

[annalex]

we are not saved by works - rather we are saved TO work

You correctly describe the fact that our salvation comes form Christ alone, but you incorrectly assume that works are mere evidence or product of faith. In fact, the scripture teaches that there is a two-way relationship between faith and works. This is why Romans 2, James 2, and Apocalypse 22 plainly state that were are saved by our works, and the process is described in Matthew 25.

What your cherryproofs show is that "the good works [...] meant for any other reason than our love of Jesus [...] are not acceptable". No argument there. They do not show that works in turn produce faith. How could they? It is St. Paul who likened the Christian life to a race and a battle, who declared love the greatest virtue for us to "put on". The Protestant notion of salvation preceding sanctification is counterscriptural -- it contradicts Matthew 25, 2 Peter 1, Romans 2:1-8, the parable of the rich young man who received a direct answer to the question what saves from Christ, and the exhortations to virtue -- not to faith -- we find at the end of every Pauline epistle.

Rather than changing subjects, why don't you face the problem you have, -- that Matthew 25 described election before the foundation of the world, and judgement at the end of times by works?

[Blogger]

Which parts of NOT OF WORKS do you not understand???????

[annalex]

Bishop Minatios is trying to say is that you can overrule what God has designed.

Bishop Minatios got that form Jeremiah, the same source as St. Paul got the vessels similitude.

Well, throw out grace and mercy

Where did I do that. It is divine grace and mercy that make our works salvific.

[annalex]

What part of "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" do you not understand?

[Blogger]

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Blogger]

None of it. I understand it perfectly because I understand the whole counsel of Scripture and the harmony of Paul and James. SHOW ME YOUR FAITH without your works and I will SHOW YOU my faith By my works. Works is evidence. It is not the cause of salvation. When one claims to have faith but doesn't have works then he is not justified in that claim. When one claims to have faith and shows good works, then he is justified in that claim because true faith is a faith that will work.

Salvation is NOT OF WORKS. But it works. Capisce?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Not only does it teach against presumption, but its says "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

There is so much assurance in Scripture a person would have to be blind to miss it.

And that is because our assurance is built on His strength, His righteousness, His sacrifice, and not our own.

"And he (the Lord) said unto me, 'My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.' Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." -- 2 Corinthians 12:9-10

[HarleyD]

HD-Well, throw out grace and mercy

annalex-Where did I do that. It is divine grace and mercy that make our works salvific.

Blogger and I can see the problem.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Isn't calling something a free gift an oxymoron?

How so? The definition of a gift is that it is "free." If we pay for something, it is recompense.

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." -- Romans 5:15,16,18

[Blogger]

And Paul

[Blogger]

Gift:
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.
4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent: the gift of saying the right thing at the right time.
–verb (used with object)
5. to present with as a gift; bestow gifts upon; endow with.
6. to present (someone) with a gift: just the thing to gift the newlyweds.



dictionary.com

[D-fendr]

If my Scriptural case did not convince you then, it will not convince you now.

That's very true. And if your waking consciousness didn't convince that you have free will then, it won't convince you now.

I can't imagine someone arguing that we don't have free will. If we don't what's the point of arguing about it?

Or is it that you can't choose not to argue about it?

The position just gets absurd fast.

[kosta50]

Kosta: Isn't calling something a free gift an oxymoron?

Dr. E: How so? The definition of a gift is that it is "free." If we pay for something, it is recompense.

Thank you. You just confirmed that the expression 'free gift' is an oxymoron. Something to the effect of a "more perfect Union..." or "at 9 AM in the morning." A gift is a gift only if it is free, so the expression "free gift" a redundancy, suggesting that there could be a gift that is not free.

I hope you realize that the Greek original has no such expression. The word used is "charisma" (grace) in at least two of your three references. The third one doesn't even have 'charisma' or any form of a gift in it.

KJV does it again...