Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Is there a difference between saying that a particular book gives you salvation and worshiping that book?
Seems a far cry from worshipping Christ.
I would be more concerned about your brothers who run around praying to apparitions of a dead human than those who bury their nose in Scripture and discuss proper understanding.
Does this commentary bother you?
http://www.rosaryarmy.com/consecrationpodcast3.aspx
The third devotion to our Lady, known and practiced by very few persons, is this I am about to disclose to you, predestinate soul. It consists of giving one's self entirely and as a slave to Mary, and to Jesus through Mary, and after that, to do all that we do, through Mary, with Mary, in Mary and for Mary. We should choose a special feast day on which we give, consecrate and sacrifice to Mary, voluntarily, lovingly and without constraint, entirely and without reserve: our body and soul, our exterior property, such as house, family and income, and also our interior and spiritual possessions:
Namely, our merits, graces, virtues and satisfactions.
Sorry. Not buying that one. She is your alleged advocate,
http://vatican.mondosearch.com/search_en.aspx?query=pray+to+mary&x=0&y=0
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
Mary, Help of Those in Need
Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.
Prayer to Our Lady of Czestochowa
O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary, to Thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am an all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy love. To Thee will I devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art.
From now on my only desire is to do all things with Thee, through Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing by my own strength, whereas You can do everything that is the will of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. You are always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the Faithful, that my family, my parish, and my country might become in truth the Kingdom where Thou reignest in the glorious presence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, forever and ever.
Amen.
Prayer to Our Lady of Fatima
O Most Holy Virgin Mary, Queen of the most holy Rosary, you were pleased to appear to the children of Fatima and reveal a glorious message. We implore you, inspire in our hearts a fervent love for the recitation of the Rosary. By meditating on the mysteries of the redemption that are recalled therein may we obtain the graces and virtues that we ask, through the merits of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Redeemer.
Amen
Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe
Dear Mother, we love you. We thank you for your promise to help us in our need. We trust in your love that dries our tears and comforts us. Teach us to find our peace in your Son, Jesus, and bless us every day of our lives.
Help us to build a shrine in our hearts. Make it as beautiful as the one built for you on the Mount of Tepeyac. A shrine full of trust, hope, and love of Jesus growing stronger each day.
Mary, you have chosen to remain with us by giving us your most wonderful and holy self-image on Juan Diego's cloak. May we feel your loving presence as we look upon your face. Like Juan, give us the courage to bring your message of hope to everyone.
You are our Mother and our inspiration. Hear our prayers and answer us.
Amen.
And many more...
The word "sacrifice" is indeed inapproproate, at least without a qualifier. "Dedicate" would be better. But no, it doesn't really bother me since it is all clearly Christ-centric.
I don't see you quote at the link though.
With the possible exception of exalt, could you not say/give the same things of/to another person? What is the difference in your view?
It is on one of the days that you have to drop down.
No human is worthy. None is worthy of our exaltation. We do love humans, and do adore however, not in the same way. A human being is not our life. Christ Jesus is our life. I've seen Marian prayers saying Mary is "our life." To me, that is blasphemy.
I am Orthodox! Why the heck are you linking to the website of the Patriarchate of Rome to justify your allegations?!?
Didn't see the tagline
Yep, Blasphemy - or Love. Fortunately, when I first heard it sung I really could "feel the love." There was never any question in my mind that these monks love her and do NOT worship her.
More to the point, what exactly is supposed to be the problem with these prayers, in your view? They all make clear that her mediation is to Christ.
I've got to run but I would really like to know if it is simply a form of spirituality that is foreign to you or where do you see a fundamental problem. Anticipating one answer, Christ remains the mediator to the Father in all these prayers; Mary intercedes to Him. We are fully aware of the "one mediator" verse and do not see it violated here.
So reason need not apply? Shades of Regensberg!
It is not Scriptural. Jesus ALONE is the Mediator. NONE of the Apostles get even CLOSE to praying to Mary for her intercession or anything else. Giving Mary attributes of Christ is blasphemy but the Mary of Catholicism bears little resemblance to the Mary of Scripture (particularly in the apparitions). Consecrate the world to Mary? Not hardly. God alone is Sovereign.
Re-read the story of the wedding at Cana.
Yes. It's interesting, O Blogger, that you went to an English dictionary. That would be one of the las tplaces I'd go for a matter relating ultimately to a cocmmandment given in God's Language, namely Hebrew.
In my protestant seminary when we looked at the idea of worship we cranked through the etymmology some and it's relationship to worth. The line about a cemetary was mentioned: from memory) Many were buried there, some of honor and some of worship, where "honor" meant nobility and "worship" meant wealth.
Somebody said,"You worship what saves you," which is to say you "value" waht saves you, with respect to different kinds and degrees of salvation. I value exercise to save me from physical weakness and the blahs. But I value God supremely to save me from the whole mess.
So the "community usage" was "Supreme worship" or words of that kind.
But here we have veneration and worship, In English, as Webster's suggests, it's at most a matter of degree. Somehow I doubt the editors of Webster's care much about theology.
You do get that we don't see those activities as mutually exclusive.
We're an old church, with habits and diction perhaps best understood with reference to Troubadours, Medieval poetry and customs, and things of that kind. You might get SOME notion of the affect (if you know Tolkien) when you consider Gimli's fierce devotion to Galadriel. That's "courtly love" of a kind. A knight could be devoted to his lady, but that had nothing to do with marital love (Except in Parzival -- his "lady" is his wife! Astonishing!) The "lady" might be the queen or his lord's wife, and at least in the ideal, the lover's joy would be only to receive her smile and the privilege of bearing a token of hers - a veil or a bit of sleeve which she had once worn. There really was an ideal of a passionate love which either had nothing to do with sex or with VERY sublimated sex, and it was a love that dared and endured great things, either of courage or of asceticism.
And that lies behind the language, excessive to our ears, of some of the Western songs to Our Lady.
And MY Lady would never return my love if I betrayed my utter allegiance to my Lord and hers. The matrix within which my love arises is that my Lord loves her, and she and I love Him.
Again, it's a matter of flavor and of experience. My mother was English, as she said "A British subject, not an American object." She had quite ambivalent feelings about the aristocracy, of which she was by no means a member, but she LOVED the Queen. I was bowled over when I realized this about her, and it shed a new light on pre-Republican governments and why regicide was considered especially foul.
Then I was involved with a really neat candidate for our state assembly, a self-made man and a man of principle and faith. And I remember seeing him march in our little community's 4th of July parade (in which George Allen usually rides a horse, since he's from around here.) And as he passed I smiled and whistled and pointed at him, as if to say, "You da MAN!" and he saw me and smiled and pointed back, as if to say, "No, YOU da Man!" And it just felt good. Now if I were to write a song about that, somebody could say it sounded blasphemous or plausibly homosexual. But it would be no more blasphemous than the Four Tops song, "I'll be there," which I always thought with a little tweaking would make a great hymn.
Lewis says, in another comparison, that some art is like through difference, and the more like, the more unlike. A good painted portrait is more like the subject than all but the very best photographs. But photographs are in some sense "exact" representations.
So the Theotokos is, as are we all, in God's image. But my devotion to her is very unlike my devotion to God.
One last inadequate appeal. I am very devoted to my wife. I am also very devoted to my child. Those devotions do not conflict with one another or with my devotion to God. If anything, they all reinforce one another.
Again, I am not really trying to persuade. Maybe I'm suggesting that there is a range and subtlety to religious affect and affiliation which might be more nuanced than folks at first appreciate.
"Today 'Christians' work hard to steal other professed Christians into churches that condone abortion, gay marriage, hay lifestyles, and every manner of sin which Christ spoke against"
Actually I think it's reversed. Psuedo christians work hard to drive Christians out of churches that support "abortion, gay marriage, gay lifestyles, and every manner of sin which Christ spoke against". Every main line denomination is steadily losing members as they rush pell mell into hell. Seriously now, did you like that assonance or alliteration in that last phrase? I know it was not onamatapoea because I can't spell it.
Okay. Is it wrong to ask anyone to pray for one? How do we "parse" this one out?
LOL! Only took 9 posts for one to come out of the woodwork!
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