Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Amen to your beautiful post.
It is difficult to understand why things happen the way they do. I had desires to enter the church that never were fulfilled due to the unexpected illness and death of my father. But in hindsight it turned out for the best because of a different path that God has lead.
We know that everything is done according to precisely how the Father wishes them to be done. God may bless and grant our petitions, but whether He does or doesn't it is according to God's will. More importantly, we know that all things work together for our good. So whatever the answer is to our prayers, it is for our benefit.
Can you show me where praying is work? I don't consider it working at all; rather it's more like a conversation.
Do you think not praying will change your destiny, change who you are, where you are and why you are? Do you think "knowing" what the Father wants from you is necessary for your salvation? Obviosuly not!
No. From my perspective I would like a certain person to come to know Christ. I have been praying that God will help this person come to Christ. Now do you think God will answer my prayer? Do you think I'm praying outside of God's will? From your perspective I'm not and by all account God should grant my petition. But what happens if He doesn't? How do you justify my prayer not being answered?
Rather from my perspective God has already ordain those who will come to Him. Consequently, my prayer for the salvation of this individual is for my edification. If this person comes to Christ, I can celebrate that God has answer my prayer and this one lost soul has been transformed into a new creature to share all eternity in heaven. If this person does not come to Christ, God still has answered my prayer. I can satisfy myself in the knowledge that the will of the Father is done and know this was what is best-even though I might not understand it.
So, once again, why do the Reformed pray?
The real question is why does the synergist pray for the salvation of others when it overrides their will.
For me, it's like I can't not pray. Praying is work, only in that it is an action. Only when prayer is results oriented does it become work work.
Do you communicate with your loved ones, only because or when you expect there to be some kind of effect on you or them?
When you see an example of the beauty of His creation, how can you not express your awe about His greatness to Him? How can you not thank Him for showing it to you? When He has given you comfort, stilled your fears, how can you not express that to Him? When He has provided for you, how can you remain silent, taking Him for granted? When I screw up, I can't not express my remorse to Him, cuz it eats away at me.
And thank you for YOUR beautiful post. One of my prayers is,”Oh Lord, I don’t care if I lose, as long as you win.”
Oh Lord, I don’t care if I lose, as long as you win.”
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Can you show me where praying is work? I don't consider it working at all; rather it's more like a conversation.
Sure, it's an act for which you expect something in return. You hope, you wish, you desire, that this act, this activity, results in something. I would say that's work.
Now, believing is not work. It is something you know in your heart as we say. No words are necessary. It's a 'feeling.'
I have been praying that God will help this person come to Christ.
According to the Reformed theology that must be pointless, because God does not do what you expect him to do. In fact, that person's fate has already been sealed according to the Reformed theology that you subscribe to, and therefore your prayers are empty words.
Now do you think God will answer my prayer?
No! He has already decided (according toy our theology) what happens to that person and your praying will change absolutely nothing, either way, in that regard. The result would be the same if you did not pray.
Do you think I'm praying outside of God's will?
Yes you are. I believe in free will, which you deny. You say that you pray because God makes you pray, so then, by necessity, your prayers are simply doing His will, not yours. I say it's self-delusion.
From your perspective I'm not and by all account God should grant my petition
Well, you got that wrong, HD.
But what happens if He doesn't? How do you justify my prayer not being answered?
It means your prayers were not pure, but selfish and unrighteous (cf James 5:16). It means, God didn't hear them, not because he is mean, but because He can't hear that which is impure. He can't see that which is sinful. he can's save that which is evil.
Rather from my perspective God has already ordain those who will come to Him
Yes, I have been saying that all along, which is why your prayers (by your own theology) change absolutely nothing.
Consequently, my prayer for the salvation of this individual is for my edification
As in self-aggrandisement? I would agree with that. It's a feel-good thing. It's a Pharisaical was of drawing attention to oneself and making oneself feel more important.
If this person comes to Christ, I can celebrate that God has answer my prayer and this one lost soul has been transformed into a new creature to share all eternity in heaven.
God didn't answer your prayer, HD. He did absolutely nothing of the sort. Your prayer has a 50-50 chance of being right. According to the Reformed teaching, God already made that decision loooooooong before you decided to pray, or for that matter before you even existed.
If this person does not come to Christ, God still has answered my prayer.
LOL!!!! I have watched enough comedy with Miss Hilton this week -- this tops it off! You covered all bases, haven't you!? Talk about self-righteousness being the very fabric of reformed thinking...geeez!
I can satisfy myself in the knowledge that the will of the Father is done and know this was what is best-even though I might not understand it.
That's for sure, HD.
The real question is why does the synergist pray for the salvation of others when it overrides their will.
The synergists prays for others because the synergist believes that the good Lord can and does change things out of mercy in response to our pure prayers. Our will is simply to ask God for mercy. It's not something we "synergists" invented, it's in the Bible!
I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. [Isa 38:5]
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. [Jame 5:16]
Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops [James 5:18]
We synergists believe that God intercedes in our lives, rather than believe that he has already pre-programmed each and every one of us to do exactly as robots, with no will of our own.
Do you believe that everything that happens here on earth is done and planned by God?
You know, the Orthodox mindset is different. When we "pray" we ask for mercy. When the priest sings "Let us pray" the people respond "Lord have mercy" or "Grant it O Lord." In Orthodoxy, prayers involve giving thanks and asking for mercy. In either case we expect results.
We hope our prayers are pure enough for God to hear them and we expect that despite our sinful ways God will be merciful with our repentant hearts. It's work, alright, it's actually beggings either bowed down or kneeling.
Not as different as you might think.
When we "pray" we ask for mercy.
Trust me, a good share of my prayers are asking for same. He may have it all under control, but that doesn't mean that we've been clued in. Since my cancer was diagnosed, I've asked Him to take me gently if that is His will, but if I must suffer & He wants to use me, I ask Him to give me strength to withstand the test.
When the priest sings "Let us pray" the people respond "Lord have mercy" or "Grant it O Lord." In Orthodoxy, prayers involve giving thanks and asking for mercy. In either case we expect results.
Thy will be done. ;o)
We hope our prayers are pure enough for God to hear them
I don't think that there is anything that I can do that will make me pure enough to be deserving without His help.
and we expect that despite our sinful ways God will be merciful with our repentant hearts.
Do you think that people bring all of their suffering on to themselves, always? Is it about what happens to us or is it about our ability to handle what happens to us?
It's work, alright, it's actually beggings either bowed down or kneeling.
I've done plenty of that too. Like I said, He may have it all under control, but that doesn't mean that we've been clued in. Father, I feel lost & alone, I need Your comfort. Oh yeah, I beg, oft times while sobbing.
I start thinking that I have free will, that I'm in control, bad stuff happens. I have to say though, I have also been truly blessed & have much to be thankful about.
Is everything DONE by God-no. Is everything PLANNED (ordained) by God-yes.
“Prayer is not about what WE want. It is about understanding what God wants.”
Now that strikes me as very “unOrthodox”. As Kosta points out, we pray for God’s mercy, which we both want and need. I would add that we pray also for the blessing of accepting God’s decisions/will. We KNOW what God wants. The Church teaches us that in multiple ways. The problem is that we very often want something else and choose to proceed to act on what we want rather than what He does.
God knows what you want and need before you know.
Prayers bring things bubbling to the surface, for me. Even things I know are unworthy desires can become known to me during prayer. I can tell Father that I didn't really mean it, but He knows better. While praying the "Our Father", if my mind is fully engaged with the meaning of each part it will bring things out for me. He is Great, have I been paying attention? He's been providing, Have I noticed & thanked Him? I worry about evil, but He can move mountains, I need to stop hiding under my bed & get into the battle. He forgives me, goodness I've been holding on to my anger toward another, time to deal with that.
I would add that we pray also for the blessing of accepting God’s decisions/will. We KNOW what God wants. The Church teaches us that in multiple ways. The problem is that we very often want something else and choose to proceed to act on what we want rather than what He does.
Have you ever noticed God's hand acting in your life? Look at your words again, "I would add that we pray also for the blessing of accepting God’s decisions/will." If He's dabbling in our lives, are all of our actions our own, the result of total free will?
Yes, you're correct that we must also pray for God's mercy which is what we want and need. I would also say this is the will of the Father for us to repent wouldn't you? So praying for His mercy is understanding and praying for what God wants.
We KNOW what God wants. The Church teaches us that in multiple ways.
I don't wish to sound like I'm trying to slip through on a technicality. I started off somewhere back by saying that prayer is a very complicated issue that is difficult to discuss on a forum like this. And I certainly wouldn't be honest if I said I have it all figured out. There are few Christians that do. It is, after all, communication with God and that, in itself, is difficult. (Look how hard it is for us to communicate with our wives and you'll get the picture.)
There are a number of things we should pray for and some things we are not to pray for. Some of the articles I have read on prayer gives very detail laundry lists of prayer. There are different purposes of prayer, and times to pray, and methods of prayer. As soon as we start talking about one facet of prayer, another facet raises it head. We'll be all over the place on this subject.
“If He’s dabbling in our lives, are all of our actions our own, the result of total free will?”
Yes, absolutely. Our personal actions and decisions are our own and the result of a free will acceptance or rejection of God’s grace. Accepting God’s will involves several things, two of which are understanding that when we reject God’s grace, we are acting contrary to His will that we become like Him and second that we are wrong if we seek to influence others in any way other than that they also become like Him; in other words, foster an acceptance of God’s transforming grace in others but not to pray that another does or becomes something or someone WE might want them to become.
“There are different purposes of prayer, and times to pray, and methods of prayer. As soon as we start talking about one facet of prayer, another facet raises it head. We’ll be all over the place on this subject.”
You’re right, HD! :) I just pulled out my wife’s Orthodox Prayer Book...prayers for all sorts of situations.
It's not that we are pre-programmed or robots. All of us are who we are. To those of us trapped in linear space/time, events that happen are a surprise. To someone not tied to this space/time, the beginning and end can all be seen at once. That is a limited version. Now imagine having the power to know what would be if all of the people were put into all possible lives, being able to create or not create some people, to end up with the desired result. After all of that has been considered, the universe is set into motion, poof.
Somewhere along the line you're going to run into an anomaly. Either it is the anomaly of Predestination and Free Will working together, or the anomaly of God ordaining all things and yet sin being one of the things He must have ordained.
If you,re going to tell us a person committing the sin does it out of an unrighteous, evil desire and purpose, that is Free Will. He decides to do evil.
The Calvinist God is so weak that he has to take away man's free will so that He can make sure all gets done as planned.
The Catholic/Orthodox God is so powerful that He can accomplish the same plan, even though He gives man a free will.
Dear Harley,have you ever thought about things in this way?
I wish you a Blessed Evening!
So I thought. I have yet to run into an anomaly under the Predestination model and, yes, I have tried.
The Calvinist God is so weak that he has to take away man's free will so that He can make sure all gets done as planned.
You can't take away something you've never had. We are either slaves to sin or slave to righteousness.
God did not create or ordain a slave to sin!
If He did He would own it!
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