Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Very shrewd. 8~)
No one is saying the early church, or anyone for that matter, has denied "free" will. Here is what the Westminster Confess states about free will:
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
So that she may be resurrected.
In reading through the response chains, I saw an excellent point made by FTD, who noted that all bodies are resurrected, ending up in either Heaven or hell. FTD cited Rev. 20 and Dan. 12. We are also told in Matthew and Luke that there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Presumably, an unresurrected spirit would not have teeth to gnash! :)
However, if you mean resurrected to glory, I still don't see the connection. If Mary never sinned, and was not blemished by the Fall, then she would have been otherwise fully fit for Heaven on her own, no? If Christ never died, would she have existed as an unresurrected spirit? IOW, is the whole point of the cross for Mary to get a body in Heaven?
The Orthodox of all people! It gets me bent out of shape but then I realize they are not saying it the way it sounds...
I can also tell you that only three or four people in my church show what I consider excessive reverence for Mary; the vast majority give her appropriate and dignified gratitude for her prayers. In all my years, I have never seen anything like this with this small group.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
1704 -The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”7
Excerpt from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#pro
Catholic Doctrine
Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands pre-eminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichæeans, but insists against the Semipelageians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men’s wills by His omnipotence and omniscience—through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. St. Augustine’s teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom. But God possesses an infallible knowledge of man’s future actions. How is this prevision possible, if man’s future acts are not necessary? God does not exist in time. The future and the past are alike ever present to the eternal mind as a man gazing down from a lofty mountain takes in at one momentary glance all the objects which can be apprehended only through a lengthy series of successive experiences by travellers along the winding road beneath, in somewhat similar fashion the intuitive vision of God apprehends simultaneously what is future to us with all it contains. Further, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe. How is this secured without infringement of man’s freedom? Here is the problem which two distinguished schools in the Church—both claiming to represent the teaching, or at any rate the logical development of the teaching of St. Thomas—attempt to solve in different ways. The heresies of Luther and Calvin brought the issue to a finer point than it had reached in the time of Aquinas, consequently he had not formally dealt with it in its ultimate shape, and each of the two schools can cite texts from the works of the Angelic Doctor in which he appears to incline towards their particular view.
Here is the major difference
Excerpt from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#pro
Free will and the Protestant Reformers
A leading feature in the teaching of the Reformers of the sixteenth century, especially in the case of Luther and Calvin, was the denial of free will. Picking out from the Scriptures, and particularly from St. Paul, the texts which emphasized the importance and efficacy of grace, the all-ruling providence of God, His decrees of election or predestination, and the feebleness of man, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate. In his controversy with Erasmus, who defended free will, Luther frankly stated that free will is a fiction, a name which covers no reality, for it is not in man’s power to think well or ill, since all events occur by necessity. In reply to Erasmus’s “De Libero Arbitrio”, he published his own work, “De Servo Arbitrio”, glorying in emphasizing man’s helplessness and slavery. The predestination of all future human acts by God is so interpreted as to shut out any possibility of freedom. An inflexible internal necessity turns man’s will whithersoever God preordains. With Calvin, God’s preordination is, if possible, even more fatal to free will. Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God’s grace which it is impossible for him to resist. It is absurd to speak of the human will “co-operating” with God’s grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things. It is objected that in this case God sometimes imposes impossible commands. Both Calvin and Luther reply that the commands of God show us not what we can do but what we ought to do. In condemnation of these views, the Council of Trent declared that the free will of man, moved and excited by God, can by its consent co-operate with God, Who excites and invites its action; and that it can thereby dispose and prepare itself to obtain the grace of justification. The will can resist grace if it chooses. It is not like a lifeless thing, which remains purely passive. Weakened and diminished by Adam’s fall, free will is yet not destroyed in the race (Sess. VI, cap. i and v).
Dear Brother,"the gate is norrow"! In your interpretations of Scripture the gate to heaven is WIDE ,its the cakewalk and the gate to hell is NARROW-hardly anyone will go into hell. You have turned our Lord,s words upside down!
Why do you think that I am saying that few will go to hell?
The opposite is true, too many are going to hell for rejecting the free gift of salvation (Rom.5:16-18) by adding their own works to it.
That is a false Gospel that Paul calls anathama in Gal.1.
So what part of 'free' is that you do not understand?
If someone offered you something for 'free' and than stated that you had to spend the rest of your life working to earn it, you would call that person a liar and fraud.
That is exactly what any religious system that does that rejects what Christ offered freely (Jn.7), by adding to it what they think the gift should really cost.
Salvation is free and that means no works are necessary to have it or to keep it because the price of it is beyond human payment!
So all attempts to 'help' God with works are arrogrance and are rejected by God as such.
I,ll pray for you.
Thank you, that is very kind of you.
Just don't say any Hail Mary's for me!
“...and was not blemished by the Fall, then she would have been otherwise fully fit for Heaven on her own, no?”
I think if the Latins are correct and there are such things as Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception, your argument holds together. If, however, there is no such thing as Original Sin, thus no need for the Immaculate Conception, as Orthodoxy teaches, then the Theotokos as a fully human person needed the destruction of of the power of death as much as any of us.
Perhaps you,re confusing selfish works with works abiding in Christ. Works of love means we are doing what God has WILLED for us,thus we are cooperating with God- not for the good of oneself but for the good of others.
This is pleasing to God.Right?
Selfish works are useless because there is nothing we can do outside of abiding in Christ for self gain that will not be revealed to God.
These works are as filthy rags
Here is an example where lack of work might cost you your Salvation...
If you pass by a hungry family on the street and you have the ability to help them and do nothing and you continue to do nothing every time a situation like this arises.
I think its possible that one COULD lose Salvation for doing nothing.
Lets look at what Scriptures say about WORKS....
“WORK as a preacher of the Gospel, fulfill your ministry.” 2Tim 4:5
“WORK for upbuilding and not for destruction.” 2Cor 13:10
“WORK from the heart as for the Lord, and not for men.” Col 3:23
“WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12. See also 1Cor 9:24-27.
“For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in GOOD WORKS, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them.” Eph 2:10
“And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one’s WORK, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning.” 1Pet 1:17
“There are just men and wise men, and their WORKS are in the hand of GOD.” Eccl 9:1
“...who will render to every man according to his WORKS.” Rom 2:6
“But their end will be according to their WORKS.” 2Cor 11:15
“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.” Rom 2:13
“For GOD shall bring every WORK into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” Eccl 12:14
“Tribulation and anguish shall be visited upon the soul of every man who works evil; of Jew first and then of Greek. But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good to Jew first and then of Greek.” Rom 2:9-10
“...we should love one another; not like Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked, but his brother’s just.” 1Jn 3:11-12
“But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hat, straw, the work of each will be made manifest, for the Day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone’s WORK: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive his reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” 1Cor 3:13-15
These four preceding verses lay it on the line that every one’s works will surely be tested, and reward or punishment will follow.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 7:21
“Now we know that GOD does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of GOD, AND DOES HIS WILL , him He hears.” John 9:31
“But why do you call Me, ‘Lord, ‘Lord’, and do not practice the things that I say?” Luke 6:46
“But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD.” John 3:21
“Esteem them with a more abundant love on account of their work.” 1Thes 5:13
“If anyone, therefore, has cleansed himself from these, he will be a vessel for honorable use, sanctified and useful to the Lord, ready for every good WORK.” 2Tim 2:21
“Let them do good and be rich in good works, giving readily, sharing with others.” 1Tim 6:18
“This saying is true, and concerning these things I desire you to insist, that they who believe in GOD may be careful to excel in GOOD WORKS.” Tit 3:8
“And let out children also learn to excel in GOOD WORKS, in order to meet cases of necessity, so that they may not be unfruitful.” Tit 3:14
“...looking for the blessed hope and glorious coming of our great GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and cleanse for Himself an acceptable people, pursuing GOOD WORKS.” Tit 2:13-14
“Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain... On the contrary, let us conduct ourselves in all circumstances as GOD’s ministers, in much patience; in tribulations, in hardships, in distress; in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults; in labors...”
2Cor 6:1,5
“May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of GOD.” Col 1:10
“Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, whereas he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let everyone test his OWN WORK, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden.” Gal 6:2-5
“And they who have DONE GOOD shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment.” John 5:29
“If you know that he is just, know that everyone also who DOES what is just has been born of Him.” 1John 2:29
“Therefore, he who knows how to DO GOOD, and does not do it, commits a sin.” Jam 4:17
This is called the sin of omission. Matt 25:37-40 has more examples of sins of omission.
“And concerning these (evil works) I warn you, that they who do (evil works) such things will not attain the kingdom of GOD.” Gal 5:21 (read from verse 16 for context).
“But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore where you have fallen, and repent and do the former works; or else I will come to you, and will move your lamp-stand out of its place, unless you repent.” Rev 2:4-5
“I KNOW YOU WORKS; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD.” Rev 3:1-2
“Alexander, the coppersmith, has done me much harm; the Lord will render him according to his deeds.” 2Tim 4:14
“My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth.”
1Jn 3:18
“I KNOW YOUR WORKS, your faith, your love, your ministry, your patience, and your last works, which are more numerous than the former.” Rev 2:19
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM’.” Rev 14:13
The works which you do in this life will follow you forever.
“I KNOW YOUR WORKS and your labor and your patience, and that you cannot bear evil men;” Rev 2:2
“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the scrolls, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.” Rev 20:12
“And her children I will strike with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches desires and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your WORKS.” Rev 2:23
“Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.” Rev 22:12
“And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of GOD abides forever.” 1John 2:17
“And he who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations.” Rev 2:26
“I know your works, Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before you which no one can shut, for you have scanty strength, and you have kept My word and have not disowned My name.” Rev 3:8
Dear Brother,
You really need to stop calling Orthodox a dead faith and Catholicism a cult.
This is NOT coming from the Holy Spirit,it is coming from an evil spirit.
I tell you this out of love and concern.
I,m willing to accept you as a separated Brother.
I wish you a Blessed evening!
St. John Cassian's theology is that of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is consistent with the teachings of the Desert Fathers, the Cappadocian Fathers and the Hesychastic monks whose doctrine is the backbone of Orthodoxy.
The excerpt from the Orthodox Catechism of the Russian Orthodox Church makes it very clear that God knocks on our doors and we either open our doors and let Him in or refuse Him. We are free by God's permission, and we exercise our freedom in responding to His call as well as in rejecting it.
But God makes the first move. We can either follow or stay behind. That is our decision. God offers salvation to all, even though He knows not all will accept it. God is not partial.
Under whose power do you take that first step, your's or His? He reveals Himself but who has to move?
Ours, of course. We don't have to move. That's the whole point. God gives us a choice; He doesn't make it for us.
Well, they certainly did a lot of "cursing" for being a "local" council
Little dogs bark louder to make up for their size.
Free discloser for Marysecretary; John Cassian is highly regarded in the Orthodox Church
Highly regarded? That's an understatement. He is a Saint in both Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.
Pelagius believed there was no such thing as Original Sin. Neither do the Orthodox. I would be interested in knowing if Cassian believed in Original Sin
Of course not. Original Sin, as +Augustine understood it, was largely unknown unknown to the Church for four centuries, some fathers leaning to different degrees in +Augustinan direction notwithstanding.
The Orthodox Church hods that the soul is ill, in need of a spiritual physician, as a result of our ancestral (i.e. "original") sin. +Augustine believed our souls were dead. And Pelagius believed our souls were perfectly healthy.
It is noteworthy to mention that +Cassian condemmned Pelagianism as another form of Nestorianism. The Catholic Church eventually dropped +Augustine's errors and kept those portions of his teachings that were in concernt with the rest of Patristic theology.
A good summary of the Eastern Orthodox faith, where you can find many of these answers is on Wikipedia under Eastern Orthodox Church.
This is what the Orthodox Church has to say about the Orthodox Church has to say about the "Original Sin" (from Russian Orthodox Catechism) with my emphases added:
After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain’s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself ‘built a city’.
One of his closest descendants was ‘the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle’; another was ‘the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe’; yet another was ‘the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron’ (Gen.4:17-22).
The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain’s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.
The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: ‘Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned’ (Rom.5:12).
This text, which formed the Church’s basis of her teaching on ‘original sin’, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef’ ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as ‘because all men sinned’[1] but also ‘in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned’. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what ‘original sin’ means.
If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam’s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam’s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.
However, if we read the text to mean ‘in whom all have sinned’, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam’s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal.
As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has ‘fallen ill with sin’; thus we all share Adam’s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of ‘a leaven of evil passions’ and of ‘secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions’, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity.
Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.
The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness:
From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam’s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical.
The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: ‘...As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous... so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord’ (Rom.5:18-21).
Hopefully, this will shed some light on this issue so that you may understand how this difference emerged. Greeks know their language better than anyone else. +Augustine's knowledge of Greek was poor. That is a well known fact. Many of his translations bore erroneous translations.
Part of the problem is that +Paul spoke in convoluted terms. often saying things that are neither here nor there. Thus, as much as +Paul was instrumental in spreading Christianity and saving the Church from certain demise in Israel, he is also inadvertently instrumental for our confessional divisions and Christianity divided.
Yes, but it takes a special mind to pervert the word resurrection (the basis for our faith) to associate it with hell. Man's nature is mindbody; we are psuchesarkoi. That is our nature and our natural existence is not spiritual alone. Thus all the souls of the departed are in discomfort because they are in an unnatural state. Pray for them, FK, so that their discomfort may be eased.
After the second coming, our natural state will be re-established (this is not reincarnation, as our identities remain, and the bodies we get will be our old bodies made new).
Man will be judged in his natural, God-given state, as psuchesarkoi. Those who repented and were pardoned will be glorified; those who did not will remain separated from God for all eternity.
When we Christians speak of resurrection, we naturally think of the resurrection in the light of our Lord's, as the last step in our salvation. That was the meaning of my laconic reply.
Mary was 100% post-fall human. As such she needed to be saved even if she did not sin.
I suspect a case could be made for calling many RC’s separated brothers.
And, in my experience . . . sooner or later, every congregation that exists very long wanders at least dangerously close to the line of cultism . . . And plenty cross over the line . . .
RC’s are no safer on that score than other congregations or denominations.
They all happen to be made up of humans . . . last I checked . . . At least I don’t THINK the RC edifice has been completely taken over by ET’s.
There is no sin in that; the only sin that the scripture mentions is of Cham.
Genesis is clear that not only was he drunk, but he passed out and lay naked in his tent, for anyone to see who entered. The scripture describes this type of ABUSE of alcohol as sinful. While I am a Southern Baptist, I do not happen to be a teetotaler. If ANY use of alcohol was sinful, then Christ's first miracle would make no sense to me. (By definition, Christ would have been tempting.) However, alcohol abuse I do believe is spoken of in scripture:
Prov 23:29-35 : 29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30 Those who linger over wine,who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. 31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! 32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. 33 Your eyes will see strange sights and your mind imagine confusing things. 34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging. 35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!They beat me, but I don't feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?"
It sounds like this describes Noah to a "T". Now, is this sinful? :
Gal 5:19-21 : 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Noah sinned.
FK: "I doubt you are making a case that Mary's lifelong sinless club is joined by all the people you mention above. :) Or are you?"
I think that it would be reasonable to conclude that all who are described as perfect in the scripture were in fact perfect, or else the scripture would not describe them so. The Church does not hold any such belief dogmatically (the belief in the sinlessness of Mary is dogmatic), but in the realm of scriptural analysis, we would have to conclude that indeed Noah, John the Forerunner, and perhaps some others were indeed sinless.
By this standard Job would probably have to be included on the list. In any event, why are not these people venerated as a special class? I would think that they would, along with Mary, also be "ultimate" examples. My guess might be that you would give some special attention to John the Forerunner, but I am unaware of any to Noah or Job.
Just before Jesus pays John the famous compliment, we have what could arguably be described as a sin by John:
Matt 11:2-3 : 2 When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"
John had ABSOLUTELY no excuse for asking this question, based on what he had already seen with his own eyes. He had the benefit of prophecy, a familial relationship with Jesus, and was an eyewitness to at least one miracle involving Him. How could this not be sin? Even as Jesus learned of this sin, He nonetheless praises John. Jesus knew that ALL men are sinners, including John the Forerunner, and all the others, but that among all those sinners, none was greater than John.
[The centurion] and Mary are the exact opposite in terms of how close they are to Christ, hence the comparison was not made to Mary but to others equally unfamiliar with Him.
And I'M the one who "speculates beyond scripture"? :) Jesus says: "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." There is nothing in this simple statement to imply that He was making a comparison to only those Jews unfamiliar with Him. He could have made that distinction with three extra words: "such as you", or the like. He didn't. The statement was truly profound because Jesus elevated the faith of the centurion above that of the Jews who HAD seen Him and known of Him. Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.
FK: "This presumes that Mary could have somehow stopped the Incarnation as God had planned it."
God foresaw her response as He foresees all that He predestines, but on the other hand, God would not want to rape anyone, so yes, we have to conclude that she could have stopped the Incarnation if we believe in the goodness of God.
Mary was a virgin of faith, and from a suitable lineage. That made her scripturally qualified for her role, but certainly she was not the ONLY one so qualified. If a major source of your veneration of her is her glorious decision to obey God, (many would have done so), then how can you know if she was even God's first choice? I mean, if the fate of mankind depended on a human decision, and God used His foreknowledge, then Mary could have been His 30th choice for all we know. She was just the first one whom He knew would say "Yes". In fact, if everything hinged on a human decision, then it is LIKELY that Mary was not a first choice. This would make Mary something much less than I think she is.
Now, again assuming that it was a human decision which determined our fate, another possible view is that God only considered those whom He knew would say "yes". Even if true, it still makes the choice of Mary arbitrary, since many would have said "yes". It still lessens Mary, and makes her less than worthy of special veneration.
I see an inherent problem in the Catholic view. On the one hand you want to honor and venerate Mary above all other humans who ever lived (outside Jesus) for her independent decision to obey the command of God. On the other hand, you say that it was God who gave her special grace from the beginning, thus ensuring that decision. That doesn't square. Didn't God's foreknowledge of her "yes" include His giving of the special grace? That would take the decision out of Mary's hands and ruin everything. :)
Surprisingly or not, I agree with most of your post, FK. The OT righteous were not sinless. Take David, for example. However, they are righteous in the eyes of God. We know that Job sinned, yet the Bible calls him "perfect" (KJ, Hebrew OT), "blamless" (NAB, LXX).
In other words, humans are never perfect even if they don't sin overtly, their nature tends towards sin. Even a thought can be a sin. So, it is really difficult to imagine that Mary, from her earliest days as a young girl, old enough to know right from wrong, never even thought something, even for a fleeting moment, that would qualify as sin.
It is not as difficult to imagine that she, filled with God's grace, lost any "apetite" for sin at the moment of Annunication and, realizing her role, remained passionless for the rest of her life.
But the Apostolic Catholic and Orthodox Church simpy, says that she is purer than angels, that she never sinned. I think it is an assertion based on the fact that anything that was not pure in its totality could not be a suitable vessel.
At any rate, she is not a "goddess," no Catholic or Orthodox would ever call her "divine." Mary cannot be considered in isolation, but can only be considered in context of Christology and ecclesiology.
I believe the Protestants have no problem with Mary except with what they perceive as "idolatry." I assure you, it's not idolatry. I don't understand what is it about Mary that drives Protestants crazy.
For purposes of "sending", is there scriptural evidence that Jesus laid hands upon the Apostles? Acts 6 says that men were going to be sent, and that they were prayed over and hands were laid upon them. I didn't see how the laying of hands was THE signature of the sending. God does all the sending Himself. He sent all believers in the Great Commission without the physical laying of hands.
It just may be, Dear Kosta, that Holy Spirit within us is rising up and screaming an alarm that is worthy and fitting--particularly to a structure, pattern, degree of error--that for some RC's etc. is spiritually more than hazardous.
This business such as:
faulty Mariology = faulty Christology; functionally, logically yields Mary = Jesus.
Just screams of inappropriate emphases on Mary. At best, Mary is a distraction. At worst and far too often for far too many unthoughtful folks, Mary becomes an idol replacing focus, adoration, worship that GOD ALONE warrants, deserves, allows to be the focus of such attitudes, thoughts, practices.
We are talking, Dear Kosta, about a pattern of thought and behavior, which, under the Old Testament meant immediate stoning to death. For many of us Proties--it's not a light OPTIONAL thing--AT ALL.
And, we don't take protestatinos and rationalizations very seriously because we all have been very good at rationalizing and protesting our own petty and not so pety idoltries in our own religious and even our own spiritual walks. We have all been, at various times . . . none so blind as those who WILL NOT see. So, we assume that RC folks are AT LEAST AS HUMAN AS WE ARE--vis a vis denial, willful and other blindness; the comforts of substitutes for God etc.
You said... “”Salvation is free and that means no works are necessary to have it or to keep it because the price of it is beyond human payment!””
Perhaps you,re confusing selfish works with works abiding in Christ. Works of love means we are doing what God has WILLED for us,thus we are cooperating with God- not for the good of oneself but for the good of others. This is pleasing to God.Right?
Yes, that is pleasing to God, but doesn't have anything to do with salvation.
A person cannot do anything to be saved.
He produces fruit by love after he is saved.
Selfish works are useless because there is nothing we can do outside of abiding in Christ for self gain that will not be revealed to God. These works are as filthy rags
All works are filthy rags before one is saved.
So, once again, do you think that you can add anything to God's free gift of salvation?
Here is an example where lack of work might cost you your Salvation... If you pass by a hungry family on the street and you have the ability to help them and do nothing and you continue to do nothing every time a situation like this arises. I think its possible that one COULD lose Salvation for doing nothing.
No, one would be disciplined by God for doing nothing,(Heb.12) but one cannot lose one's salvation.
No more than doing something for the person would aid in one's salvation.
Lets look at what Scriptures say about WORKS....
“WORK as a preacher of the Gospel, fulfill your ministry.” 2Tim 4:5 “WORK for upbuilding and not for destruction.” 2Cor 13:10 “WORK from the heart as for the Lord, and not for men.” Col 3:23 “WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2:12. See also 1Cor 9:24-27. “For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in GOOD WORKS, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them.” Eph 2:10 “And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one’s WORK, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning.” 1Pet 1:17 “There are just men and wise men, and their WORKS are in the hand of GOD.” Eccl 9:1 “...who will render to every man according to his WORKS.” Rom 2:6 “But their end will be according to their WORKS.” 2Cor 11:15 “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.” Rom 2:13 “For GOD shall bring every WORK into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” Eccl 12:14 “Tribulation and anguish shall be visited upon the soul of every man who works evil; of Jew first and then of Greek. But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good to Jew first and then of Greek.” Rom 2:9-10 “...we should love one another; not like Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked, but his brother’s just.” 1Jn 3:11-12 “But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hat, straw, the work of each will be made manifest, for the Day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone’s WORK: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive his reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” 1Cor 3:13-15 These four preceding verses lay it on the line that every one’s works will surely be tested, and reward or punishment will follow. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 7:21 “Now we know that GOD does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of GOD, AND DOES HIS WILL , him He hears.” John 9:31 “But why do you call Me, ‘Lord, ‘Lord’, and do not practice the things that I say?” Luke 6:46 “But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD.” John 3:21 “Esteem them with a more abundant love on account of their work.” 1Thes 5:13 “If anyone, therefore, has cleansed himself from these, he will be a vessel for honorable use, sanctified and useful to the Lord, ready for every good WORK.” 2Tim 2:21 “Let them do good and be rich in good works, giving readily, sharing with others.” 1Tim 6:18 “This saying is true, and concerning these things I desire you to insist, that they who believe in GOD may be careful to excel in GOOD WORKS.” Tit 3:8 “And let out children also learn to excel in GOOD WORKS, in order to meet cases of necessity, so that they may not be unfruitful.” Tit 3:14 “...looking for the blessed hope and glorious coming of our great GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and cleanse for Himself an acceptable people, pursuing GOOD WORKS.” Tit 2:13-14 “Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain... On the contrary, let us conduct ourselves in all circumstances as GOD’s ministers, in much patience; in tribulations, in hardships, in distress; in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults; in labors...” 2Cor 6:1,5 “May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of GOD.” Col 1:10 “Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, whereas he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let everyone test his OWN WORK, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden.” Gal 6:2-5 “And they who have DONE GOOD shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment.” John 5:29 “If you know that he is just, know that everyone also who DOES what is just has been born of Him.” 1John 2:29 “Therefore, he who knows how to DO GOOD, and does not do it, commits a sin.” Jam 4:17 This is called the sin of omission. Matt 25:37-40 has more examples of sins of omission. “And concerning these (evil works) I warn you, that they who do (evil works) such things will not attain the kingdom of GOD.” Gal 5:21 (read from verse 16 for context). “But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore where you have fallen, and repent and do the former works; or else I will come to you, and will move your lamp-stand out of its place, unless you repent.” Rev 2:4-5 “I KNOW YOU WORKS; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD.” Rev 3:1-2 “Alexander, the coppersmith, has done me much harm; the Lord will render him according to his deeds.” 2Tim 4:14 “My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth.” 1Jn 3:18 “I KNOW YOUR WORKS, your faith, your love, your ministry, your patience, and your last works, which are more numerous than the former.” Rev 2:19 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM’.” Rev 14:13 The works which you do in this life will follow you forever. “I KNOW YOUR WORKS and your labor and your patience, and that you cannot bear evil men;” Rev 2:2 “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the scrolls, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.” Rev 20:12 “And her children I will strike with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches desires and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your WORKS.” Rev 2:23 “Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.” Rev 22:12 “And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of GOD abides forever.” 1John 2:17 “And he who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations.” Rev 2:26 “I know your works, Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before you which no one can shut, for you have scanty strength, and you have kept My word and have not disowned My name.” Rev 3:8
Now, not one of those scriptures say that any works are involved in salvation.
What they say is that works show if one is saved, and that the unbeliever will be judged by his works (Rev.20) and so will the Christian (1Cor.3:13).
So once again, I ask you, what part of 'free' don't you understand?
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:5)
Can it be any clearer?
That you can work for your salvation.
You bear fruit after you are saved and those 'works' are for rewards at the Judgement seat of Christ (Rom.14:10).
Dear Brother, You really need to stop calling Orthodox a dead faith and Catholicism a cult.
First, I doubt very much we are brothers.
You seem to have a hard time grasping the fact that one cannot earn or add to the free gift of salvation.
Second, I did not call Romanism a cult.
I said that its adherents follow a cultic method of interpetation, using a few proof texts and ignoring those scriptures that go against them.
As for the Orthodox Church and RCC being dead, ofcourse they are!
They preach a false Gospel!
Any church that does that is dead and has an anathamia on it.
This is NOT coming from the Holy Spirit,it is coming from an evil spirit.
No, I believe my Gospel of salvation by faith alone is the true Gospel and the mixture of faith and works is the false Gospel (Gal.1) and that is the doctrine of the god of this world, Satan (2Cor.4:4)
I tell you this out of love and concern.
Thank you and I tell you with the same motivation, that you need to go by what God says and not man (Mk.7-7).
Now, if you think you have a scripture that states that salvation is not a free gift by faith alone than post it and deal with what Paul writes.
Works do not add to salvation nor do they keep one saved because salvation is a free gift to be accepted or rejected as such.
I,m willing to accept you as a separated Brother.
Well thank you, but if you have not been born again, by faith alone, we are not brothers.
You are still dead in your sins.
So I urge you to repent of your heresies and see the deception you are under (2Cor.4:4)
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Thank you, I wish for you an uncomfortable one, that you will search the scriptures to see if what I have said is true or not and pray to God to give you light (Ps.119:130, Acts 17:11)
Orginal sin is passed down by the man, not the woman, who is only the carrier.
In Adam all die.
That is why no man could father Christ, since that would have meant Christ would have had a sin nature also.
The virgin birth was necessary so Christ could be the Second Adam and replace the first, so that in Christ, all are made alive (Rom.5)
Mary did not remain a virgin, but had a number of children after Christ (Mk.3)
Correction: That should read ' that you cannot work for your salvation.
No, FK,
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted [Mat 28:16-17]
So, the Great Commission applies to the remaining Apostles, and even among them some did not believe. Where did you get "all believers" from?
Why not go after real "spiritually hazardous" beliefs such as the one "church" where God is believed to have been a man before He "became" God, and where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are taught to be three different "gods," where Jesus is also a "brother" of Satan, who left additional "scriptures" on metal plates in Egyptian hieroglyphs in Pennsylvania, and we all become [real} Gods one day? We all know what "church" is that, don't we?
Or, why not be concerned about the ones who have the OT but reject Jesus Christ? After all is it more "spiritually hazardous" to be some sort of a Christian "even" Catholic and Orthodox (sarcasm) rather than a non-Christian?
And if Marian veneration is "idolatry" to you (Protestants), what is it to you? No one is forcing you to do the same!
Protestant preoccupation with Marian veneration is closer to bashing than to a concern. More importantly, it also misses the mark: like traffic cops being concerned with a car going 10 miles over the speed limit and letting bank robbers in the car next to it get away.
In other words, there are much more "spiritually hazardous" groups whose beliefs and practices should be the focus of Protestants' obessions than Marian devotion in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
faulty Mariology = faulty Christology; functionally, logically yields Mary = Jesus
Tell me, show me, where is that ever explicitly or implicitly stated in any Catholic/Orthodox doctrine. It "exists" only in some Protestant minds. No Catholic/Orthodox will ever say that Mary is divine or equal to Christ!
And if our Christology is wrong (Two natures, one divine and one human, fused but not confused, in one Person), then not only the Catholics and the Orthodox, but all the mainline Protestants and Baptists are in Christological error as well.
So, we know the objections regarding Marian devotion. Thank you (Protestants) for bringing it to our attention. Since no one is forcing you to believe it, leave it at that and be cocnerned with your own (Protestant) issues such as why the Presbyterians use musical instruments when the original Prebsyterians strictly forbade them (traditions of men maybe)?
Is think your (Protestants) real cocnerns of "spiritual hazards" should be focused on those groups that deny Christ is God, or that He died, or that He had a (real) body, or who preach that Mary Magdalene was His "wife/lover" and had children with Him, or that He was not really a man, but only appeared as such, or that He is a lesser God than the Father, etc.
Those are serious Chritologically "hazardous concerns" and Mary doesn't even enter the picture.
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