Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Thanks.
I agree with that(quoted) more or less.. even though soul and spirit are the same thing..
“I agree with that(quoted) more or less.. even though soul and spirit are the same thing..”
Well, it clearly isn’t simply a matter of semantics, I am sure you will agree. The distinctions between soul and spirit or Spirit and Holy Spirit are fundamental to an understanding of who we are and what we were created for. +Gregory Palamas saw the human “spirit” as being a created power which is part of the soul, another created thing. This “spirit” gives life to the body. The “divine spirit” or “Spirit” as used in the comment by Christou and by Palamas is an uncreated divine energy which gives true life to the soul and not a divine essence. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is of the essence of the Triune God, which is to say, the Holy Spirit is fully and completely God. We can “participate” in the “divine spirit” but not in the Holy Spirit Himself because,
“Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostases. As we have seen, those privileged to be united to God so as to become one spirit with Him - as St. Paul said, ‘He who cleaves to the Lord is one spirit with Him’ (I Cor. 6:17) - are not united to God with respect to His essence, since all theologians testify that with respect to His essence God suffers no participation.
Moreover, the hypostatic union is fulfilled only in the case of the Logos, the God-man.
Thus those privileged to attain union with God are united to Him with respect to His energy; and the ‘spirit’, according to which they who cleave to God are one with Him, is and is called the uncreated energy of the Holy Spirit, but not the essence of God...” +Gregory Palamas
Great point FK. Thankfully we are well past the age when we see people put to death for being baptized as adults.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter is instructing the individual that they must first Repent. Only someone with a measure of maturity is going to be able to understand their need for repentance, certainly not an infant that can't even speak yet. We already know from Scripture that the only means by which an individuals sins are remitted is through Jesus Christ.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already,...",
So we know that the remission of sins is not accomplished in the baptism, but by Faith Alone in our Savior Jesus Christ.
Scripture also shows that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer prior to baptism.
Acts 11:15-16 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
So clearly the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a result in Faith Alone in Jesus Alone, not the physical act of baptism. Repentance is the act of someone who has already been drawn to the LORD and has been changed and made a new man in Christ. Infant baptism is a means by which membership in a particular church is achieved.
I think you don't understand how we view the act of Believer's Baptism. The baptism does not impart grace. It is done because the believer wants to make a public demonstration of what has already been accomplished and their realization of it. None of these things occur with infants.
What about John 3:5?
Your thoughts on the meaning of baptism are close to the Orthodox belief. Baptism is indeed a Mystery of initiation into The Church, without which there is no assurance of theosis. The Church however believes that whatever sins the catechumen has are forgiven as a result of the grace of the sacrament. Now obviously with infants this isn’t an issue, but their initiation is.
As to adults, the Fathers taught:
“Faith and baptism are two kindred and inseparable ways of salvation: faith is perfected through baptism, baptism is established through faith, and both are completed by the same names. For as we believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, so are we also baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; first comes the confession, introducing us to salvation, and baptism follows, setting the seal upon our assent” +Basil the Great
but as to infant baptism:
“If the only meaning of baptism were remission of sins, why would we baptize newborn children who have yet tasted of sins? But the mystery of baptism is not limited to this, it is a promise of future delights; it is the type of future resurrection, a communion with the Master’s passion, a participation in His resurrection, mantle of salvation, a tunic of gladness, a garment of light, or rather it is light itself.” Theodoret of Cyrus
In the later sense, Orthodoxy views baptism of infants in a profoundly different way from the Latin view, which teaches that baptism of infants cleanses them from Original Sin. I am curious. Among Western-non-Latin Christians, is there a belief that Original Sin is cleansed by baptism?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Prior to birth we are surrounded by water. During birth the water breaks and we are physically born. However, we are not spiritually born "born again" until we have complete faith in Jesus.
Among Western-non-Latin Christians, is there a belief that Original Sin is cleansed by baptism?
Not in my Baptist background. We believe Baptism is a public manifestation of a completed act, done to proclaim the new man in Christ. We do not believe it imparts Grace. We believe in the two ordinances (not sacraments because neither imparts grace) communion and baptism.
It's nice to think we might have some things in common.
“Prior to birth we are surrounded by water. During birth the water breaks and we are physically born. However, we are not spiritually born “born again” until we have complete faith in Jesus.”
Do I understand you correctly to say that Baptists believe that the “water” Christ speaks of in John is amniotic fluid?
Do Baptists believe in Original Sin?
Exactly.. The complete truth of the matter only may be available to supposition.. but hints maybe can be had..
Its that way with metaphors or parables.. you are pointed in a certain direction.. and dared to think about "it"..
“For now we see as through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
+John Chrysostomos in Homily XXXIV on Corinthians explains +Paul’s words thus:
“For now we see in a mirror.” Further, because the glass sets before us the thing seen indefinitely, he added, “darkly,” to show very strongly that the present knowledge is most partial.
“But then face to face.” Not as though God hath a face, but to express the notion of greater clearness and perspicuity. Seest thou how we learn all things by gradual addition?
“Now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.” Seest thou how in two ways he pulls down their pride? Both because their knowledge is in part, and because not even this have they of themselves. “For I knew Him not, but He made Himself known to me,” saith he. Wherefore, even as now He first knew me, and Himself hastened towards me, so shall I hasten towards Him then much more than now. For so he that sits in darkness, as long as he sees not the sun doth not of himself hasten to meet the beauty of its beam, which indeed shows itself as soon as it hath begun to shine: but when he perceives its brightness, then also himself at length follows after its light: This then is the meaning of the expression, “even as also I have been known.” Not that we shall so know him as He is, but that even as He hastened toward us now, so also shall we cleave unto Him then, and shall know many of the things which are now secret, and shall enjoy that most blessed society and wisdom. For if Paul who knew so much was a child, consider what those things must be. If these be “a glass” and “a riddle,” do thou hence again infer, God’s open Face, how great a thing It is.
[3.] But that I may open out to thee some small part of this difference, and may impart some faint ray of this thought to thy soul, I would have thee recall to mind things as they were in the Law, now after that grace hath shone forth. For those things too, that came before grace, had a certain great and marvellous appearance: nevertheless, hear what Paul saith of them after grace came: “That which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that surpasseth.” (2 Corinthians chapter 3, verse 10).
But that what I say may be made yet clearer, let us apply the argument to some one of the rites then performed, and then thou wilt see how great is the difference. And if thou wilt, let us bring forward that passover and this, and then shalt thou be aware of our superiority. For the Jews indeed celebrated it, but they celebrated it “so as in a mirror, and darkly.” But these hidden mysteries they never at any time did even conceive in their mind, nor what things they prefigured. They saw a lamb slain, and the blood of a beast, and door-posts sprinkled with it; but that the Son of God incarnate shall be slain, and shall set free the whole world, and shall grant both to Greeks and Barbarians to taste of this Blood, and shall open heaven to all, and shall offer what is there to the whole human race, and having taken His blood-stained flesh shall exalt it above the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, and, in a word, above all the hosts on high, of the angels and archangels and all the other powers, and shall cause it shining in unspeakable glory,-to sit down upon the throne itself of the King, on the right hand of the Father these things, I say, no one, either of them or of the rest of mankind, either foreknew or was able ever to conceive.
[4.] But what say those who shrink from nothing? That the expression, “now I know in part,” is spoken in dispensations; for that the Apostle had the perfect knowledge of God. And now he calls himself a child? How sees he “in a mirror?” How “darkly,” if he hath the sum of knowledge? And why doth he refer to it as something peculiar to the Spirit, and to no other power in the creation, saying, “For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.” (1 Corinthians chapter 2, verse 11) And Christ again sayeth that this belongs to Himself alone, thus saying, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He which is from God, He hath seen the Father,” (John chapter 6, verse 46) giving the name, “sight,” to the most clear and perfect knowledge.
And how shall he who knoweth the Essence, be ignorant of the dispensations? since that knowledge is greater than this.
“Are we then,” saith he, “ignorant of God?” Far from it. That He is, we know, but what He is, as regards His Essence, we know not yet. And that thou mayst understand that not concerning the dispensations did he speak the words, “now I know in part,” hear what follows. He adds then, “but then shall I know, even as also I have been known.” He was surely known not by the dispensations, but by God.
Let none therefore consider this to be a small or simple transgression, but twofold, and threefold, yea and manifold. For not only is there this impiety that they boast of knowing those things which belong to the Spirit alone; and to the only-begotten Son of God, but also that when Paul could not acquire even this knowledge “which is in part” without the revelation from above, these men say that they have obtained the whole from their own reasonings. For neither are they able to point out that the Scripure hath any where discoursed to us of these things.”
Correct, and I used the same argument previously. The idea of pre-existence of the souls is certifiably pagan and Gnostic. It entered Judaism between 500 and 200 BC as a result of Babylonian infleunce and, later, through extensive hellenization, along with apocalyptic beliefs.
The appearance of both is problematic in my opinion. Elijah didn't die, yet his body would have to be spiritual for him to appear. And Moss would have been in Hades until Christ rescued him along with other OT righteous.
Hosepipe: The spirit DOES NOT die.. else what is HELL..
My favorite Roman Catholic spiritual writer, Thomas Merton, says that hell is where
Theologically, we understand hell as a state of permanent separation of the soul from God.
Indeed, this is a fascinating discussion. No doubt one's doctrine or traditions, understanding, epistemology and personal spiritual experiences has great bearing on how he views physical/spiritual consciousness/mind/will body/soul/spirit life/death and so on.
No wonder it goes in so many directions! LOL!
The leaning I have in the spirit is that Christ did not come to establish a new religion but to fulfill the law and prophets in establishing God’s family. It was always Christianity, but most of the Jews didn’t understand that then – nor do they understand it even now
Whether the Gentiles were to be included or not is a story unto itself. Jesus never taught it and Acts 13:46 suggests it was an aftertought. The Great Commission is perhaps also, or perhaps it was a later-day revelation, especially given that it was written when it was becoming increasingly obvious that the Church will survive only among the Gentiles.
Be it as it is, Judaism is not Christianity either way. We can read the OT only through the lens of the NT, and see in it the foreshadowing of Christ, an overture of the full revelation.
Thus, when the Apostles believe that Christ is Elijah, or Jeremiah, or John the Baptist, they are expressing a Judaic pagan-ifluenced belief (common in those days) in reincarnation, for which Christ, curiously, does not rebuke them. Yet Christianity rejects reincarnation.
If I were to fabricate a religion or doctrine of my liking, it would not resemble that to which I have testified. In my “religion” Christ would have arrived the conquering lion, healed everyone, revealed Himself to all
So, then your beliefs are based on what if not on doctrines of men (yourself included)? They certainly cannot be based on Scriputre alone because kabbalah – which you often quote as a source – is not Scripture.
If Judaism "missed the mark" as you seme to suggest earlier, why then use Judaic concepts? If their beliefs fall short, then how can their understanding be our measure?
Not that you are wrong, but the indwelling Spirit has leaned me to the understanding that God is beyond “time” and therefore our concept of “cause/effect.”
Regardless, the Bible tells us that God actually made Adam, bodysoul, one nature, our concept of "cause/effect' notwithstanding.
I see Hell as a spirit being relegated to live connected to a very very needy human-like Body(soul) forever.. And be aware of the new spiritual conduit(body) they missed out on..
Envy and Jealousy is a Lake-of-Fire even NOW and will be then too...
Language is totally inadequate to "MERGE" this information... IMO
Even metaphorically.. might take a ("spiritual merge"-Book of Worms) to process it..
Thats quite a paragraph..
I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name. – Isaia 65:1
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. – Romans 10:19-21
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. – Matt 23:37-38
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. – John 4:21-23
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. – John 12:20-24
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. – Rev 1:7
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. – Isa 45:23
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Phl 2:9-11
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. – Matt 17:9-13
The Spirit leads me to investigate many things – among them are ancient manuscripts, Jewish mysticism, Catholic catechism, books and journals, correspondence (including on this forum.) But I do not embrace a thing unless He leans me to do so – and then in virtually every case, He confirms it through Scripture as well.
That is why I’m very careful to delineate between leanings in the spirit and mere “musings.”
Logic, physics, mathematics, geometry, etc. do not apply to the Creator - though they apply quite nicely to the (physical) creation.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16
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