Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
“I asked for life, not wife. :)”
I thought that was a pretty good line until I ran it by K. Her response was “as far as I’m concerned, what’s the difference?” I think she is beginning to have doubts about my playmates so if you can make the questions a little less controversial, I would appreciate it.
“Kosta:“Did you have life before you were created?”
If life is God’s knowledge of us in particular (John 17:3) as our knowledge of Him is life, then one would have to say we have life before conception for God knew us and named us. This goes back to the oxymoron of the spirit being “created immortal”. It does not die but the unbelieving spirit is eternally separated from God, which is the definition of spiritual death.
God knew Isaac before he was conceived. Gen. 17:19, “And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.” 10 years after the promise, Gen. 21:2-3, “For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.”
God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived. Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
God knew the elect before they were conceived. Eph. 1:3-4, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Now if you are going to ask what I know about that existence, I have to be honest and say I can’t even remember where I left my keys this afternoon or what my first appointment is on Monday. What I can glean from the little description that is given in the scriptures is that the heavenly existence is such a supramundane life that the startling contrast of awakening on earth would so shock the system as to obliterate all remembrance of the heavenly bliss, of course with the exception of marriage.
For me the symbolism illustrates that the light increases when it travels westward, as the Sun dawns out of the darkness in the east and moves toward a brighter zenith in the west.
Of course.
Because the church of Rome needs to have its adherents believe it is the gatekeeper, the distributor of God's grace, it follows that Rome formulated a concept of the Lord's Supper that is outside the grasp of laymen and can only be experienced via the wizardly incantations of its clergy.
AMEN! Dr. E. That is EXACTLY how I see it too. The only way for the men of the Church to be raised up is to bring Jesus down. This fully matches, and is related to, their salvation model (as you point out). Jesus must be reduced to having actually "accomplished" little on the cross, only that man now has a "chance" to be saved by the men of the Church through the sacraments. Gratitude and honor go to men, not God. As you have said before, it is a perfect expression of the human instinct.
Thanks for posting the Westminster Confession on this. It says it all.
Amen, my friend! :)
Sounds neat, b-d, but let's face it: the Bible distinguishes very clearly between God's (fore)knowledge and creation. For if Adam was alive when God knew him (before the foundations of the world) He would have no reason to make him.
Genesis tells us that at one point in time, God created Adam and breathed life into Him, and Adam became a living man. Before that time, Adam did not exist except as God's foreknowledge. God has foreknowledge of our life and death and our ultimate destiny, yet that foreknowlege is not played out yet. God devised the world in such a way that it must play itself out.
Perhaps your wife might conceptualize it better if you tell her it's like deciding to have a baby and actually having it.
Zenith is as high as it will go (zenbith it's straight up, not west); after zenith it all down hill... :)
It's on my list. Thank you.
As I said, the movement is all east to west...
And yet He knew him and yet He made him.
Those are Scriptural facts some of us might not be able to reconcile, but we can't erase them.
I know, from light to dark...
He did, but there was no time when God did not know Adam, yet there was a time when Adam was not. Big difference.
But please understand that, to me, they are doctrines of men which I eschew across-the-board.
And yes, I am Christian. God knows, and He is the one who matters.
I AM is a Name of God. Timelessness would apply.
Thus the two statements, that God knows us from the foundation of the world (and to the end, btw) - and that there was a "time" we were not - are not mutually exclusive.
Jesus body died his Spirit did NOT DIE..
Same with any human body.. the spirit does not die..
The other terms, ruach and neshama are used in the Old Testament in reference to man [and God] but not animals. I assert these soul/spirits are immortal or potentially immortal.
But please understand that, to me, they are doctrines of men which I eschew across-the-board
Then be consistent and start with your own.
Christianity has its bounds and doesn't spill into other religions. Some people are universalists and I recognize that, but one cannot be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddihist or a Shinto all at the same time and call himself a Christian.
Also, it is one thing to recognize that all religions contain what Kolokotronis calls "sporoi" (seeds) of truth; it's an altogether different thing to form a personal religion out of cherry-picking those doctrines of men that you do like and eschewing those you don't.
Thus the two statements, that God knows us from the foundation of the world (and to the end, btw) - and that there was a "time" we were not - are not mutually exclusive
Yes they are. What they are definitely not is mutualy inclusive, as some people make them. There was no time when Adam was not known to God, but there was a time when Adam was not.
God's knowledge of Adam is not the same as Adam's created existence, for God actually made Adam and imparted life into him even though He knew Adam (as an idea) all long. In other words, God's knowledge (idea) of Adam is not equivalent to Adam's creation.
The (fore)knowledge does not impart the "breath of life" into a lifeless form.
I AM is a Name of God
I AM means Life. "I am" is also our reality. It means we are alive. Adam could not say "I am" until God created him and gave him life.
The soul who sins will die [Eze 18:4]
” Yes they are. What they are definitely not is mutualy inclusive, as some people make them. There was no time when Adam was not known to God, but there was a time when Adam was not.
God’s knowledge of Adam is not the same as Adam’s created existence, for God actually made Adam and imparted life into him even though He knew Adam (as an idea) all long. In other words, God’s knowledge (idea) of Adam is not equivalent to Adam’s creation.
The (fore)knowledge does not impart the “breath of life” into a lifeless form.”
I find it fascinating, and a bit troubling, that any Christian could profess a belief in the pre-existence of souls. The Church has always taught that we are “psykosomatikoi” souls and bodies. Similarly, The Church has been quite adamant about the pre-existence of souls, a belief in which was anathemized at the 5th Ecumenical Council in 553:
“IF anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.” I Anathemas Against Origen
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