Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
As for naming Churches as a proof that the, uh, name-ee is being worshipped, then around here they worship Broadus Wood and Broadus Wood first Baptized On Saturday up to his neck while drinking poison and handling snakes Church.
= = =
MD, I think it's beyond your fine mind and personal integrity to equate those two even in jest. Sheesh. That's beneath you, imho.
You certainly don't equate those at some level, imho. Perhaps in a cheeky moment for argument . . . but in your serious mind????
To fully understand the NT, which I would think would be something all Christians, not just the Orthodox, would aspire to, the answer quite simply is yes, as Kosta so very completely explained. I cannot add to his post save to say that in Greek we still use letters for some numerical designations such as Α', Β', Γ' Δ', 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. :)
I feel the same way about a lot of the absurd statements thrown at Prottys here.
I wonder by whom?
Talk about infantile . . . some of the logic utterly escapes me . . . maybe because there isn't any.
Evidently that means you have no substantive Biblical reply.
Judaism is a liturgical faith. Your ignorance is amazing. Your anger is fascinating.
Well, I certainly hope that our Orthodox friends got as much of a kick out of this statement as I did. :) The RCC is in no position to criticize others for caving to modernity.
I ignore your loud and pretentious posts in principle. Rephrase, reformat, and you'll get a scriptural answer like everyone else who posts to me and wants one.
Well, we struggled... But we did not cave.
I see a lot of what amounts psychologically to shrine and ancestor worship in Virginia. I used to call it "Virginia Shinto" when I was in the pulpit. I don't blame it on the various denominations. I think "homecomings" are a fine thing to do. But they do nurture Virginia Shinto or provide a friendly environment for it. But when (IF) our people blue from hyper dulia to latria, it'sour fault, But if one of your people go the other way, it's not your fault? I note that Tertullian ended up a Montanist, but I don't conclude that the "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem" gang are all crypto-heretics waiting for some stimulus to burst into frank fulminating heresy
When John writes about bad guys in our churches, that's evidence of corruption. When "The 18th Baptist fellowship of those who couldn't get along with the first Seventeen" opens up on 3rd Street, we'd better not dare suggest that has anything to do with any problems in Protestantism. With WHOM would uyou guys arguem in all hour different conventicles and denominations and whatnot, if you didn't have us to unite you?
I'm just weary of it. So a Church is called "Mary Queen of Peace". So what? Anybody who wants to make a theological point of that has a serious proportionality issue. We disagree. Get over it.
I used to have a Jehovah's Witness buddy. (This IS possible, though rare.) You know Witnesses are about crosses like some people are about Mary. "EEW! Pagans do that. YOU have a pagan symbol hanging around your neck! Eeew! Eeeew! Eeeeeew!" I'm used to this, but a constant headache will make one depressed, and the barrage of pathological reactions (and that's how they look to me, seriously)to Catholicism get me down after a while.
I think the worst of it is that we who are DOING this, who are LIVING it, are finding Mary's Son, what's His name, oh yeah, uh, Jesus, yeah, that's it, within us, with us, around us, before us. All those practices which you ridicule and despise have been HUGE blessings to me.
But no, now I'm a victim of crypto-Isis worship because Constantine was on the take from the Vatican or some such nonsense. You all are saying to me, "Whom are you going to believe, us or your lying eyes."
I get abused by some Sabbatarian, and I'm supposed to make sure that I don't generalize that to all Sabbatarians. But a bad experience by some crypto-Jansenist dominatrix-type cathechist is proof that Catholicism is demonic?
And I'm supposed to sit there and take the technicolor posts in large fonts mocking my religion and casting aspersions on the way things look to me, but when I make a jest about Broadus Wood (which come to think of it is actually a school, but never mind) I get a rebuke?
I'll say it again: One of the strongest arguments in my mind FOR Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the way the war against it/them is waged. Rank upon rank of otherwise reasonable and good folk think it's perfectly all right to mock and insult, to wave lines from Scripture like Muslims waving pictures of their mullahs. When the hatred is so demonic, the thing hated MUST have something VERY good about it. I know you guys will deny any fear, but Satan must be quaking in His boots to marshal such forces and launch such attacks.
All that these threads do before they tire me out and make me sad at the hatred in the world, is reassure me that my becoming Catholic is one of the best things I ever did.
"Here I stand", maybe I could do some other, but I have yet to see a reason I would want to. "I am in Love, and out of it I will not go." Not on purpose, anyway.
/Rant off. I'm gonna go wash my feet, there being no free-will Baptists around to do it for me.
Bravo!!!
What makes you think that Christ needed encouragement to begin performing miracles, or that Mary even did that? Isn't it interesting that about the ONLY thing we are told about His childhood was that Mary did not yet believe?:
Luke 2:48-50 : 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
In addition, I can't believe you are seriously suggesting (if you are) that John 2:3 counts as Mary encouraging Jesus to perform a miracle. :) Mary says: "They have no more wine." That's it. It is pure invention to suggest that this meant Mary was encouraging Jesus to wave His hands and produce some from thin air. Biblically, we have no idea if Mary "got it" at this point.
Luke 2:48-50 : 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
In addition, I can't believe you are seriously suggesting (if you are) that John 2:3 counts as Mary encouraging Jesus to perform a miracle. :) Mary says: "They have no more wine." That's it. It is pure invention to suggest that this meant Mary was encouraging Jesus to wave His hands and produce some from thin air. Biblically, we have no idea if Mary "got it" at this point.
Excellent post, FK. Ninety-nine percent of what the RC church teaches about Mary is fiction.
And all of it detracts from the glory that is due the Triune God.
Gee, FK, isn't it just a bit disingenuous, even by one who doesn't read Greek, to leave out the rest of the passage?
"And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to Him: They have no wine.
And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.
His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever He shall say to you, do ye.
Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.
Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it.
2:9. And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water: the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,
And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now.
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee and manifested His glory. And His disciples believed in Him."
Now FK, it seems to me clear, even in so sorry a tongue for matters spiritual as English, that the Theotokos expected, no knew, that He would do something about the wine situation. It seems also perfectly plain that He wasn't ready to perform miracles and that He was "snappish" to His mother...but He did turn the water into fine wine, didn't He, and at his mother's suggestion, a suggestion He clearly understood.
I believe that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, not a human figure and not Mary. It's a prophetic verse.
Kosta, Kosta, Kosta, when are you going to stop painting all protestants with your big brush? Our church, among many spirit-filled churches, certainly do read those verses. We even have classes at different times of the year that address some of the things of which you speak. Tch, tch.
"Your lense is simply and above all modernity, the "synthesis of all heresies" as Pope Pius X phrased it.
Well, I certainly hope that our Orthodox friends got as much of a kick out of this statement as I did. :)"
Unaccustomed as I am to agreeing with anything from the lips of that "innovator" +Pius X, I must say that I do agree with him that "modernity", at least as he used the term, is indeed the synthesis of all heresies
"I understand you need your "Tradition" in order to justify some of your beliefs. The fact remains the only thing we have that we can be absolutely certain is truth are the Scriptures. They were written by the Apostles or those that knew the Apostles. They were not fabricated several generations to hundreds of years after the fact, such as the Protoevangelium of James was to support what has become flawed doctrine."
WF, both the Eucharistic and ecclesiological theology espoused by +Ignatius of Antioch were from a man who was a disciple and correspondent of +John, the successor of +Peter and likely knew Christ. His letters are not "generations to hundreds of years after the fact" and yet Protestantism utterly rejects everything those letters teach. Why? They lay out the exact Eucharistic theology believed in and the exact Church structure manitained by the bishops who decided what made up the canon of the NT that you have such (justified) confidence in.
Scripture often has multiple meanings, ESPECIALLY in prophecy!
We Christians note that many of the "Jesus" prophecies ALSO have multiple meanings - one for the immediate time and people when written, and another meaning for the future - us. Thus, the Suffering Servant refered to Israel - and for us, it refered to Jesus Christ.
Same thing with Revelation 12. It means Israel - but it also refers to a particular person who gave BIRTH to the Son of God! Mary!
Regards
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