Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Wow. I am always in awe of people who actually live the way most of us say we're going to live any day now. Your children will call you blessed.
**smile**
You were probably told it's "immersion". See, however,
gifts and sacrifices are offered, which can not, as to the conscience, make him perfect that serveth, only in meats and in drinks, and divers washings, and justices of the flesh laid on them until the time of correctionThe Greek for these diverse washings is "baptismois". It is not necessarily immersion; it is hard to imagine that all baptisms were by immersion in the arid Palestine. The Church however recommends immersion when practicable.(Hebrews 9:9-10)
This ignores the Church. But the scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit was given the Church (Acts 2) and Christ proclaimed the Church final arbiter in disputes (Mt 18:17).
I have never thought that because I can't see any scripture to support it. Whatever thing I ask my friend to pray about is what I am also praying about. If that thing is within the will of God, then I know it will be granted, no matter how many people are praying for me. If it is not, then it will not.
FK: "... when you pray to Mary: "Mary save us!", what exactly do you expect Mary to do for you?"
I expect Mary to pray for me to Christ, so that He is merciful to me should I falter.
I mean, I'll take your word for it and all. But it sure doesn't "sound" like that's what the prayer is about. :)
I am wondering what was your point in posting that verse. You seemed to counter something, but I could only guess what.
I explained what I meant by that comment two times by now.
13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistleVerse 14 qualifies the preceding verse: God calls by the gospel, but we are to hold to the entire Tradition, either written or oral. It is also disputable if the "gospel" in v 13 is the scripture or oral witness of the "good news". Historically, (Thessalonian epistles were among the first written), probalby the latter.(2 Thess 2)
That is one of the reasons I mentioned Ananias and Sapphira. It is a New Testament of an example of God killing people for overt sins.
Forgive me for my anecdotal story but I'm reminded of a 38-year old man several years ago who decided, in order to win a radio contest for the most outlandish stunt, decided that he would have sex with someone in St. Patrick's Cathedral and broadcast it on the radio. He was of course arrest, booked and when they went to get him from his cell to go before the judge, they found this healthy 38 year old dead from a massive heart attack.
Coincidence? Calvinists don't believe in that sort of thing. IMO God sought to exercise his vengeance for desecration of His holiness, just as He exercised vengeance against Belshazzar.
Granted, this is only an anecdote. You could point to a number of people who constantly rally against God and live on for years. We wonder, as did David, why God allows this? There aren't any good answers as to why God chooses to allow Simon the magician to live and to take Ananias' life.
I am curious, and I may have asked this before, what do you believe the effect of sin is in and, for that matter, on the world?
I'm not quite sure I understand your question. The effect of sin is dead. That is why we see dead and destruction all around us. The world is simply reaping what it has sown. But God controls all of this, including the time and circumstances of our dead.
There are many places in the Old Testament where God steps in and have people killed or directly kills someone. Why should we think that God has changed His tactics?
I understand that. The point Dr. E and I are trying to make is that these are "good" decisions as the world defines them-not as God defines them. To God, without Christ, they are not good decisions.
The exclusivity of the apostles is very clear: they are told the true meaning of the parables for example. Also there was a circle of disciples at the Pentecost. But this being said, I agree, that the Holy Ghost goes where He wishes. My accusation of hubris only applies to claims of divine guidance when they are at variance with the consensus patrem.
we have no less confidence because we do not read it through the lens of the fathers
But you should -- because what it is that you know and they did not?
We don't have a central government to throw out sects or cults who want to call themselves Protestant ... Those of us Bible-believing Protestants hold on to the scriptures
I agree that the "30,000 denominations" rap is reaching. More to the point would be maintream protestant denominations that have gone leftist on social and sexual morality teaching. They are not obscure sects or cults. Another example I'd give is free will denominations versus calvinist denominations. These -- a few major denominations -- is what I have in mind.
Second, while you are all united on the four solas, I believe I have demonstrated sufficiently that the Catholic interpretation of what scripture has to say on the Eucharist, free will, the role of works, and apostolic succession is likewise following the scripture, and often with greater fidelity to the text than the Protestant reading. What gives?
On this level, I would guess that 99% of Bible-believing Protestants would now be just as unified as you are with the Orthodox.
OK, I see your point.
I see you have come up with a brand new interpretation for Rom. 3:23
Not at all, I always argued that the context in Romans 3 is the depravity of mankind outside of the grace of Christ.
I could play ball with the doctrine of impossibility, according to scripture, such as in the case of Christ or (arguably) children. But Mary is in neither of those groups and there is no scriptural exception for her
The point is that the childen and Christ are not excepted either. Therefore St. Paul is painting with a broad brush there and no individual conclusion is to be drawn for anyone, Mary, or St. John the Baptist, or Noah, or Abel, etc. His thrust throughout the epistle is Christian unity: he needs to explain to the Romans that things that separate them from the Jews, such as laws and customs, are unimportant, while things that united them, such as sin and faith, are important.
No scripture covers Mary according to Catholic beliefs
Oh, please. Genesis 3, Luke 1, Luke 11:27, John 2, John 19, Acts 2. Mary is an important part of the scripture quite apart from Catholic Marian devotions.
reading it with no lens, and no bias
That in itself is a modernistic bias. You will read what pleases you and disregard what does not, -- just like you disregard James 2 on works, or Matthew 16 on papacy and the church.
That wrath always follows sin, and sin is something men do.
Movie??? Was someone talking about a movie??? :O)
To God, without Christ, they are not good decisions.
Then either: -You have arrived at a tautology: A good decision is a good decision made by a saved Christian. You have defined away the question rather than answer it.
Or:
-You are including selfless love as being "with Christ". (I don't think you're meaning this, although I'd certainly go this direction.)
these are "good" decisions as the world defines them-not as God defines them
Would a man that lay down his life for his friends out of love be a "good" decision as God defines it?
Yes, that is the difference. In other words, if a protestant pastor decides that homosexuality is OK all he needs to do is start his own Church. A priest, however, cannot do that.
By the way, I had a scripture-only discussion with someone who maintained that our stance on homosexuality is overstating the scripture. His view was that every time (or at least in most striking passages form St. Paul) homosexuality is condemned it is "lying with a man as if with a woman" is condemned, and he interpreted it as bi-sexuality, not as someone who is 100% gay and does not pretend otherwise. Ridiculous? Yes. But he made a solid case from scripture. I was amazed.
You told me yourself that there is nothing necessarily eternal about "eternal life".
What?
I have no idea what you are talking about concerning "the departed", who ARE asleep in Christ, taking interest in events on earth
Saints Praying for Us on Earth
If we need Biblical proof of saints in Heaven praying for us on earth, we need only look to the book of Revelation, which was written by John, the beloved disciple of Jesus. The martyred called out to the Lord for justice on earth (Rev. 6.9-11). Were they seeking revenge? Obviously not! If these souls were in Heaven, as recorded by the inspired writer, then an evil motive is not within their capacity. These martyrs were praying for God to end the evil on the earth and bring justice to the righteous.More men and women are shown in Heaven: "A great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands."(Rev. 7:9) "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple." (Rev. 7:14-17)
Next we see the saints in Heaven offer their prayers to God in the form of incense.(Rev 5:8) As the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand, the censer is filled with fire from the altar, and thrown at the earth.(Rev 8:3-5) Immediately, events on the earth are affected by the prayers of the saints by the angels with the seven trumpets.(Rev. 8:1)
The saints are praying for the members of the body of Christ who are still on earth and not in Heaven. Although they are not physically present to each other, the saints and the faithful on earth remained united by the Love of Christ.
The inspired writer of the letter to the Hebrews shows this clearly when he states, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith." (Heb. 12:1-2) Who are the witnesses surrounding us to whom the writer refers?
If we look at the context from the previous chapter of Hebrews, the witnesses referred to are the faithful! (Note: The bible was not originally written in chapter and verse. It was later divide into such an arrangement for easier study.) Hebrews names these people of faith in chronological order of appearance in the Old Testament: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel and the prophets, and others who experienced mocking and scourging, chains and imprisonments. They were stoned, sawn in two, tempted, put to death by the sword. They were destitute, afflicted, and ill-treated. (Heb 11.1-37) "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."(Heb 11.39-40)
These people comprise the cloud of witnesses that surrounds us. These are the martyrs that cry out for justice before the throne.(Rev. 6.9-11) These comprise the great multitude in Heaven that no one can count.(Rev. 7.9) And these saints, along with all those who pass from this earthly life to the fullness of life in Heaven in Christ, intercede for us constantly until the day when Jesus returns and His angels gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt. 24.31)
The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Hell yields another instance of those in Heaven being able to intercede for others. Jesus tells that the rich man asked Abraham's intercession on two accounts. The rich man's requests indicate that he knows that Abraham has the power to accomplish this task. (The rich man requested that a person return to his earthly brothers and warn them that hell exists and that they are headed in that direction if they do not become righteous. (Luke 16.19-31)). And we know that Abraham does not do so by his own power, but only through the power of God. Although Abraham denies the rich man's request, we see that the rich man recognizes Abraham's intercessory power to assist people on earth.
In fact, there are only two reasons from scripture for honoring saints (those who have died and are in Heaven):
The basic scriptural argument for the Communion of Saints stems from the following logic:
- Because of their position in the Body of Christ. "Give double honor (twice as much) to the teaching elders who rule the household of faith." (1 Timothy 5:17). "Esteem them more abundantly who are over you in the faith." (1 Thessalonians 5:13). "Submit ourselves to our leaders and obey them." (Hebrews 13:7).
- Because of what God has done in the person. "All generations will call me blessed, for the almighty has done great things in me." (Luke 1:47-78). Mary's greatness stems from the great works God performed through her, however she is not used as an instrument and tossed aside. Likewise, if we cooperate with the Will of God, we grow in greatness.
Some have argued that praying to the dead is condemned by scripture in Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:3-20; 2 Chronicles 10:13, 14; Isaiah 8:19-22, etc. Catholics agree, communication with the dead, know as "necromancy" is a great sin and opens the door to greater demonic pursuits. However, there is a distinction between those who have died and those who are alive in Christ. St. Luke says: "He is not the God of the dead but of the living."(Luke 20.38) Surely that must include those of us in his love on earth and those of us who are alive in his love more perfectly in heaven.
- All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another (Rom 12:5, etc.)
- Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15)
- Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39)
- Christians are bound in mutual Love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:11; Gal 6:2, etc.)
Simply stated, those who have died and are in heaven (Saints) are more alive than those of us who reside on earth according to St. Paul, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."(1 Cor. 13.12)
If you doubt the power of the prayer of a righteous saint, ask God for His pardon (if you feel necessary to do so) as you invoke the intercession of a saint. You will honor God's established economy of salvation when you ask a saint to pray for a specific intention. There are many saints to choose from, and they have many unique gifts. St. Luke was a physician, St. Matthew was good with numbers, St. Paul was a good evangelist, St. Stephen died the first martyr, St. Mary Magdalene honored Jesus, St. Mary the Mother of God cooperated with the will of God, etc. Ask any or all of these holy, Christian men and women who have gone before us in the faith for their prayers as you would a Christian friend here on earth. For our brothers and sisters who died in Christ also rose with Christ; bodily death cannot separate us from the love of Christ nor from each other as members of His mystical Body. These holy men and women enjoy the glorified fellowship of God right now and will gladly intercede with God for your needs.
I don't understand how we are loving the Lord in this way by praying to saints instead of Him.
If we love God, we love what He does. Sainthood is what he does. He makes saints, and we admire His work in them.
Even with 100 years of scriptural study, there is simply no way possible to arrive at a great many Catholic conclusions about salvation based on scripture.
I've been doing it on this thread as fast as I can type. There is ample scriptural case for works cooperating with grace onto salvation. And it is plain text, too: Romans 2, Matthew 25, James 2.
a fair reading of scripture DOES reveal the Trinity
I agree. But the Arians disagreed. The Jehovah's Witnesses disagree today.
there were plenty of contemporaries right from the start who got things wrong
But they were corrected by other Church fathers. The consensus of the fathers is the standard by which our reading is to be measured. Christ the Eternal Word is timeless. But the text of the Scripture is evidently local in time and place, as we see examples when translatpons do not express the meaning very well.
Certainly. The scripture has many levels on which it speaks to us, but the literal meaning is always first.
Works will always accompany faith, so without works there is no faith.
This, more or less, is the Catholic understanding. Works of love and faith are like two legs on a journey: one pulls the other, in turn.
God gives saving grace only to His elect, but bases His decision solely on His looking through His crystal ball to see who "would" have accepted Him, then it is also a mockery because God is reduced to a stenographer.
If that were all God did, then yes, He would be a mere recorder of our lives. But he also gave us His Son, which set the entire grand design of salvation in motion. Without Him, there would be no outpouring of grace and no works.
You are saying to me that this does not say that the believer himself cannot leave. The text says "no one", so you are apparently asking me to consider that the believer is not a person. This is why you surprised me so much with your opening statement about following the plain text.
The plain text is "snatching". Do people snatch themselves?
Well said. Thanks for the quote.
The Church comes AFTER Scripture. The Church gets its life from the Word of God. So, if you will Christ--->Holy Spirit---->truth--->Scripture---->Church.
Yeah - only I wouldn't dignify the process with the name of thinking. But St. Anthony is famous for helping people find stuff. So the suggestion (and that's all it is) is that God LIKES it (so to speak) when we ask the saints to intercede for us.
I suppose my angle would be that any prayer being answered favorably to the beneficiary, whether saints actually pray for us or not, is wholly dependent on whether the subject matter was within God's will. That's why I struggle with any idea that one person's prayer, be it from a saint or from my own pastor, can have any more "pull" than the prayer of myself or any other true believer. If I asked you and my pastor to pray for me about something, I would simply be happy that two good Christians were praying for me. I wouldn't think that one would carry any more weight than the other.
Sometimes I talk to Mary or to other saints, doing the dished, cooking breakfast, shivering outside while I gather wood, whatever, but mostly I talk to God the Father, and some to Jesus.
OK, that's good the hear. I only have very limited anecdotal evidence among Catholics I have known in the workplace, etc. I've seen the names of Mary and the saints invoked often, and God directly, less so. But of course I have no idea what they do with the rest of their days.
Thank you also for this very civil conversation. I really enjoy learning about your beliefs and practices.
This is spin.
St. Peter speaks of those who are called in v 3. They also have knowledge of Christ. In the next verse, the promise of the partaking of the divine nature is made conditional: you may partake if you flee the corruption of the world. Then verses 5-7 enumerate virtues in which one is to grow. Then in v. 8 there is another condition: that if one grows in virtues, he will be fruitful in the knowledge of Christ. Thus the very knowledge spoken of in v. 3 will bear fruit, but conditionally, if the virtues are practiced.
In v. 9 a warning is given to those who fall off the program. How they do it? they forget the knowledge ("having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins"). The journey, for those who complete it, culminates in the security of the election and they "shall not sin at any time".
If the condition of those described in v. 3 were the same at the beginning of their labor as in the end, the passage would have been meaningless. Your theory is, it is there to let the hesitant know how to get a sense of security. But the exhortation to labor in v. 10, and the promise of holiness as the goal there militate against that theory.
Once again, the Catholics read the Scripture and you theorize about it.
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