PREDESTINATION; LIVE BY GRACE; NOT BY WORKS (WEEK 8)

St. Louis Center for Christian Study ^ | Greg Johnson

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!

Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.

But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:

1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity

Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.

2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism

If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.

3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules

Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.

4. Freedom from Penance

Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.

Repentance/Penance

Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God

Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin

Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught

Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better

Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess

Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God

Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self

Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety

God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.

[Cvengr]

In regards to Sola Scriptura, Dispensationalists such as Chafer tend to approach the issue from the perspective of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father. The Scripture, being the LOGOS, the Word communicated to the believer; the comprehending of the Word while one is in fellowship with Him, is primarily made understood to the believer's soul (his thinking) by the Holy Spirit.

The better the translation and pertinence to the beleiver's state of sanctification, the easier it is for the believer to remain in fellowship while studying Bible doctrine.

Since all faith comes from God, likewise the Bible doctrine as it is thought in the soul is given to the believer by the Holy Spirit.

So many of the arguments regarding a particular translation or teacher are almost irrelevent except that the gift of pastor-teacher is a spiritual gift of communication given to some believers to effect that communication of the Word to other believers for their initial hearing of the Word. The mental processing of the Word is purely the work of the Holy Spirit for it to be efficacious for sanctification in the believer.

Have you seen any similar doctrines from within the Orthodox Church?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It has to be because He is omniscient in its own right. God does not NEED to direct every action that is.

And yet He does.

Go figure.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "For example, we know that in Catholicism the Holy Spirit completely turns His back away from the laity in terms of leadership ..."

Where is that in the Catechism?

I have no idea if it is in a Catechism, I only know it is a principle I think you have espoused. I am speaking of the authority of the Magisterium you have been working so hard to protect. According to you part of the definition of this special authority is that the Spirit only leads your Magisterium, and no one else on earth, in matters such as scripture interpretation that matters. (He also only leads them in terms of coming up with brand new material that all the laity are COMPELLED to believe or get out.)

We, OTOH, believe that the Spirit leads all believers in sanctification, which includes interpretation. You see this as a weakness and we see it as a strength. Our belief in the Spirit says that He has an open-door policy, and is always there for us on an individual basis. He leads us as individuals taking full consideration of the personal makeup He gave us. It is a very personal relationship.

This is quite different from one having no direct contact with the Spirit in these important matters and being forced to simply accept the say-so of dead men who never knew the first thing about you. A vast human chain of command stands directly in between you and God, and you say this is how God wanted it. That would never work for me. I need to know that God always wants to hear from me personally, and not through a filter of saints, Magisterium, or any other middlemen. I really do appreciate that God has the time to work with me one-on-one. That makes the relationship special.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Wow. Posts one second apart. 8~)

[Alex Murphy]

Where's Alex? Wasn't there a song, "Walk Like an Arminian" sung to the tune of the Bangles' "Walk Like an Egyptian"?

LOL! I have a dozen or more "Arminian" spoofs, but none using that song IIRC. However, I do have a half-written ditty using that very song on my HD, called "Reformed Egyptian". How'd you know?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping!

In the taming of the frontier, the new American government discovered that they didn't need to control every inch of every river. They could do so by controlling the junctures of major rivers.

So with time and events. God knows the important junctures.

Indeed, though every hair on our heads is numbered, He gives us commandments - if/then - promises of rewards and punishments. Thus I accept "free will" as a gift of God - true and meaningful because He has spoken it, i.e. not an illusion.

[hosepipe]

[ So with time and events. God knows the important junctures. ]

Its possible time is a "mirage".. but timing is not..

[Alex Murphy]

Ping to my Joan Osborne Arminian spoof What If God Could Be Stopped By Us? and my Joan Collins Arminian spoof Dumbing It Down.

[Gamecock]

And not once did Israel fulfill an if/then without God smacking Israel over the head without a figurative big stick. (ie being carted off to Babylon). We cannot fulfill the if/then. That's why we need a Savior who could fulfill the law for us.

Our will is indeed free, and in our unregenerate state we will always choose to glorify ourselves.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

~~"Dumbing It Down (to Send in the Clowns)"~~

"...You must love farce
whose fault I can't say, but
He never gets what He wants
Without your okay, so
Omnipotence drowns
And Providence frowns
as you Dumb it Down...

In this week's church bulletin here
we've ditched the sermon for interpretive dance
and oh lookee here
There's going to be clowns
Next week there'll be clowns
Don't bother, they're here"


LOLOLOL. Forever Young. 8~) I bet you could do something great (if you haven't already) with Robert Palmer's "Simply Irresistible."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thus I accept "free will" as a gift of God - true and meaningful because He has spoken it, i.e. not an illusion.

Where is "free will" spoken of in Scripture? And how could something that might end in your damnation be considered a "gift?"

Free will is not the gift of God. The gift of God is His grace, free, unmerited, and personal.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

[Forest Keeper]

I'm sure you've told me this before, but is sanctification a process and once started, can one still fail to attain salvation?

We believe the lifelong process of sanctification begins at the point of true belief, i.e. what we call salvation. So, a person must already be saved to experience it, and salvation cannot be lost. Sanctification includes all the growing in faith we experience for the rest of our Christian lives toward the goal of conforming ourselves to the true image of Christ. This growth is governed by the Holy Spirit on an individual basis.

I believe sanctification also includes the good works that we choose to do as believers because the more we obey Christ the more we grow in faith. That these works will be done we believe is guaranteed in scripture by God through the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. In this way the plain meaning of "once saved always saved" may be rejected because it is not possible for a true believer to claim "I believe" and then go immediately back to wine, women, and song for the rest of his life. I say "plain meaning" because I have found that many Protestants, including those in my church, use the term OSAS when what they describe is really POTS.

The question then comes up as to whether we believe that sanctification is therefore actually a part of salvation in order to satisfy the scriptures appearing to require works.

POTS says "yes", works are necessary, but that since they are guaranteed by God it is really all one included package. I have made the analogy that sanctification is like running around the bases after hitting a home run. While it is necessary, the actual act was completed when the ball cleared the fence.

FK: "I find myself now more surprised when I categorically disagree with Patristic writings when I read them."

Truth be told, FK, I suspect you'll find very few of those instances ... I'd be interested in what you've found that you do thoroughly disagree with and whether or not you think the disagreement might be from a fundamental anti-Roman theology/ecclesiology prejudice which of historical necessity colors Protestant thinking at least to some extent.

That sounds fair enough. I can't think of any specifically this minute, and when I wrote I was thinking about the remarkable number of times I have read your quotes over the last several months and agreed. I will try to remember this and ask you about such passages as I come across them.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

We cannot fulfill the if/then. That's why we need a Savior who could fulfill the law for us.

Amen. That's the entire point of the Old Testament -- to illustrate the law saves no one; that the law condemns because no one can keep the law perfectly. As you said, that's why we need a Savior.

"He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.'" -- Matt 15:16-17

[Gamecock]

Amen. That's the entire point of the Old Testament -- to illustrate the law saves no one; that the law condemns because no one can keep the law perfectly. As you said, that's why we need a Savior.

Exactly.

If we have free will in the Arminian perspective, there would be a vast multitude who have never sinned, period. Why? Because they choose not to sin. Of their own moral ability they would be able to keep God's law perfectly.

[Forest Keeper]

[Marlowe to Xzins:] The Calvinists here on Free Republic keep describing a kind of hypothetical Arminian and what these hypothetical Arminians are alleged to believe is nothing close to what you or I believe, yet they continue to try to link us up with this boogeyman description of Arminians. Clearly neither of us falls into their definition, and neither did Arminius.

OK, that's fine. I have noticed that a few times Dr. E. has given a laundry list of issues that (it is argued) separate Arminians from Calvinists. The latest one I saw was in her 584:

[Dr. E. in 584:] But the distinctions are worth preserving. The Arminian believes in resistible grace, semi-fallen nature, Christ's blood being lost on the reprobate, the possibility of true faith not persevering to the end, and most especially, election based on men's clever choice to believe in Jesus Christ, as "hypothetically factored in" to God's decree.

So, I'll just flat out ask, what do CTA's say about the following issues?:

(1) Irresistible grace.

(2) Total Depravity.

(3) Limited Atonement.

(4) POTS.

(5) Unconditional Election.

By my interpretation, in order, these are the issues Dr. E. raised. To both of you I am asking if you agree or disagree with each of these doctrines (with any qualifications you wish) and what you think Arminius would say to each?

[P-Marlowe]

The TULIP was developed as a reaction to the Remonstrants and belief in the petals of the Tulip was not necessary in order to be a Calvinist at the time of Arminius. Arminius subscribed to the Belgic confession, and not the TULIP.

That being said, Grace is irresistible to those who do not resist it. IOW all who are saved are saved because, for them, it was obviously irresistible. Men are totally depraved inasmuch as they are incapable of coming to Christ merely by the exercise of their own will and can only come to christ if they are made able by the calling and leading of the Holy Spirit. Even Calvin did not believe in Limited Atonement and it was not to be found in the earlier confessions. Those who have been chosen and elected will perservere to the end and election is conditioned by God and not by men. All who believe shall be saved, so in that sense God has himself conditioned salvation on belief.

[.30Carbine]

Thank you.

[Forest Keeper]

Wow. Posts one second apart. 8~)

And we were both thinking of God's sovereignty and control. :)

[xzins]

1. I believe in irresistible prevenient grace and resistable saving grace.

2. Total Depravity. There is no disagreement at all with Total Depravity.

3. Limited Atonement. The atonement is efficient only for those who believe and are elect, therefore limiting it. It is sufficent for all. (As already mentioned, God's foreknowledge is aware that not all will actually be saved.)

4. Perseverence of the Saints. Those who do not believe will not be saved. Those who do believe and continue to believe demonstrate the reality of their born again experience.

5. Unconditional Election. Seeing that our Lord was slain from the foundation of the earth, there is no one saved who is not elect in Him from before creation.

[xzins]

The river of time is controlled by the Creator. The creator no more has to totally manage every millimeter of that river to bend it to His will than I have to control every millimeter of a nail to drive it. I need only strike the head.