The Real Trinity

November 9, 2006 | Brion James

[policyforever867]

The Holy Trinity

[adiaireton8]

Scripture only isn't what the Bible says. The Bible says that new ideas cannot contradict scripture.

I completely agree with that.

And I agree with all the passages you quote here. But none of that teaches "Scripture alone", i.e. no bishops, no Sacred Magisterium.

-A8

[kerryusama04]

No. But the authority of the Sacred Magisterium entails that the Sacred Magisterium's interpretation of Scripture trump's your interpretation of Scripture everytime.

But Sunday worship is not a matter of interpretation for a Catholic. There is no scriptural support for this dogma. It is, in fact, in direct contradiction to the Word of God.

If Rome has this authority and power, and if Rome says that Sunday is the holy day, then Sunday is the holy day.

Then why does it matter if anything is scriptural? Like my parents, leave the theology for the Church, kick back, partake of the Sacraments, and relax. Everything will be OK.

[kerryusama04]

And I agree with all the passages you quote here. But none of that teaches "Scripture alone", i.e. no bishops, no Sacred Magisterium.

Churches ought to have Elders and Deacons, but they darn well better no contradict scripture or they get bounced. Rome teaches contrary to scripture and nobody gets bounced.

1Pe 5:1 I exhort the elders who are among you, I being also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. 1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God among you, taking the oversight, not by compulsion, but willingly; nor for base gain, but readily; 1Pe 5:3 nor as lording it over those allotted to you by God, but becoming examples to the flock. 1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory. 1Pe 5:5 Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all being subject to one another. Put on humility. For God resists proud ones, but He gives grace to the humble. 1Pe 5:6 Therefore be humbled under the mighty hand of God, so that He may exalt you in due time, 1Pe 5:7 casting all your anxiety onto Him, for He cares for you.

[adiaireton8]

It is, in fact, in direct contradiction to the Word of God.

So is failing to offer the blood of goats and lambs. You don't seem to understand the way in which the New Covenant superceded the Old Covenant. Christ sanctified a new day, and fulfilled the Old Covenant. That's why we don't have to circumcise our baby boys.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Rome teaches contrary to scripture and nobody gets bounced.

Rome teaches contrary to your interpretation of Scripture, not contrary to Scripture itself.

-A8

[OLD REGGIE]

(kerryusama04) " This is precisely my point. The church at Rome did not have primacy for hundreds of years after the close of scipture."

(a8) "False. Read the fathers."

(kerry) "The church at Rome did not have primacy for hundreds of years after the close of scipture."

True. Read Canon VI First Council of Nicaea.

FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA - 325 AD

Canon 6.
The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces the prerogatives of the churches are to be preserved. In general the following principle is evident: if anyone is made bishop without the consent of the metropolitan, this great synod determines that such a one shall not be a bishop. If however two or three by reason of personal rivalry dissent from the common vote of all, provided it is reasonable and in accordance with the church's canon, the vote of the majority shall prevail.

First Council of Nicaea - Click Here

[adiaireton8]

You seem to be assuming that if any bishop (other than the bishop of Rome) has authority, then the bishop of Rome does not have primacy. That's a non sequitur.

-A8

[OLD REGGIE]

You seem to be assuming that if any bishop (other than the bishop of Rome) has authority, then the bishop of Rome does not have primacy. That's a non sequitur.
-A8

You seem to be assuming the Bishop of Rome had primacy beyond the Western Church. He did not. The Bishop of Rome could not unilaterrly appoint Bishops for the Estern Churches. The "Primacy" of Rome came much later.

[adiaireton8]

The "Primacy" of Rome came much later.

No, it came when Peter became bishop of the church at Rome. I'll grant that the *full* recognition of the primacy of Rome came later.

-A8

[kerryusama04]

So is failing to offer the blood of goats and lambs. You don't seem to understand the way in which the New Covenant superceded the Old Covenant. Christ sanctified a new day, and fulfilled the Old Covenant. That's why we don't have to circumcise our baby boys.

I don't understand the disconnect here. Circumcision and animal sacrifice are directly addressed in the New Testament. There is no mention of keeping any weekly day holy anywhere in scripture other than the 7th Day Sabbath. Christ sanctified the Sabbath, and he showed us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Rome teaches contrary to your interpretation of Scripture, not contrary to Scripture itself.

FRiend, your argument is not with me on this one. Rome changed the Sabbath and they are proud of it. It is a witness to their "binding and loosing" power. It shows, to all the world, they they are the final arbiters of doctrine for the universe. This is the entire foundation that the church at Rome is founded upon. Apostolic succession trumps everything. If you believe that the switch from Sabbath to Sunday is scriptural, then you are not a Catholic. You are a misinformed, revisionist Protestant.

"From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord's day, she had handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course it is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church." D. B. Ray, The Papal Controversy, 1892, page 179

This is also the basis of ecumenism. Pre-vatican II, everybody outside Rome was screwed. Then it hit them. All these "Protestant" churches go to church on Rome's Sabbath. They all observe Rome's key invented holidays as well - Easter and Christmas. They're all giving witness to the power of Rome while decrying it's authority! Vatican II celebrates this!

"Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible." James Cardinal Gibbons, Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1893.

I can't tell you guys the laughs I have enjoyed over here watching you guys attack me over things your very church teaches.

Have a blessed Sunday,
Chris

[adiaireton8]

I can't tell you guys the laughs I have enjoyed over here watching you guys attack me over things your very church teaches.

Perhaps some day you will realize that Campion and I do not disagree in any way with what the Church teaches, and you simply did not understand Catholic theology. Then, hopefully, you will be able to laugh at yourself.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Ok, Chris, let's figure this out. Please name for me one point on which you think I disagree with the Catholic Church.

-A8

[kerryusama04]

Ok, Chris, let's figure this out. Please name for me one point on which you think I disagree with the Catholic Church.

Rome teaches contrary to your interpretation of Scripture, not contrary to Scripture itself.

"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." Cardinal Gibbons (for many years head of the Catholic Church in America), The Faith of Our Fathers (92d ed., rev.; Baltimore: John Murphy Company), p.89.

[adiaireton8]

Ok, now I see the confusion. Cardinal Gibbons means that if you didn't have the Church to help you understand how to interpret and apply the Scriptures (particularly the OT) to this present era (i.e. the New Covenant), you would conclude that we should still worship on Saturday. Only through the Church do we learn that as baptism replaced circumcision, and the Eucharist replaced the Passover, so Sunday replaced Saturday. The Scriptures can only properly understood and applied to our present time only by the Church, not apart from the Church. That's why 'sola scriptura' actually robs people of Scripture as well.

So, I completely agree with you that anyone who affirms 'sola scriptura' should worship on Saturday. They should give up the Catholic determination of the Easter date, the Catholic determination of the date of Christmas, and all the other remnants of traditions that Protestants still follow and which came from the Catholic Church, but which are not found in Scripture.

I hope that helps.

-A8

[Diego1618]

I can't tell you guys the laughs I have enjoyed over here watching you guys attack me over things your very church teaches.

Yeah....you're right. It is comical. I always get a kick out of the fact they say the reason for Sunday observance is to acknowledge the Resurrection Day......when scripture plainly says it happened on a Sabbath. Of course they'll twist whatever you say so it will line up with their Magesterium's dictates. Truth is secondary to tradition!

[kerryusama04]

Ok, now I see the confusion. Cardinal Gibbons means that if you didn't have the Church to help you understand how to interpret and apply the Scriptures (particularly the OT) to this present era (i.e. the New Covenant), you would conclude that we should still worship on Saturday. Only through the Church do we learn that as baptism replaced circumcision, and the Eucharist replaced the Passover, so Sunday replaced Saturday. The Scriptures can only properly understood and applied to our present time only by the Church, not apart from the Church. That's why 'sola scriptura' actually robs people of Scripture as well.

Huh?

"Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Catholic] Church outside the Bible." "To Tell You the Truth," The Catholic Virginian, 22 (October 3, 1947), 9.

So, I completely agree with you that anyone who affirms 'sola scriptura' should worship on Saturday. They should give up the Catholic determination of the Easter date, the Catholic determination of the date of Christmas, and all the other remnants of traditions that Protestants still follow and which came from the Catholic Church, but which are not found in Scripture.

Again, could you please refrain from the language spoken by those who crucified my Savior? I told you it is not about "scripture only", it is about not contradicting scripture. Sunday worship contradicts scripture. There are no such things as Christmas, Easter, or the Trinity in scripture either. ALL of these things have been instituted through traditions and claimed apostolic succession.

I hope that helps. Helps who? I am completely secure in my faith. I understand that there are two ways to go a) study the scriptures and work out my own salvation with fear and trembling or b) accept Rome's interpretation of Mat 16:18 and accept the doctrine of the church of Rome. My choice is made.

[adiaireton8]

Helps who?

Helps you understand that there is no incompatibility between what I am saying and what Cardinal Gibbons said.

-A8

[kerryusama04]

Helps you understand that there is no incompatibility between what I am saying and what Cardinal Gibbons said.

"Sunday is founded, not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no Scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday." Catholic Record, Sept. 17, 1893

"Q. Have you any other way of proving that the [Catholic] Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

"A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; ... she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism (3rd American ed., rev.; New York: T. W. Strong, late Edward Dunigan & Bro., 1876), p. 174.

You better sleep on this one, FRiend.

[adiaireton8]

Sunday is founded, not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no Scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday." Catholic Record, Sept. 17, 1893

There is no incompatibility between this and what I believe.

Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; ... she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."

Again, there is no incompatibility between this and what I believe. You seem to think that there is some contradiction between these quotations and what I believe. But I *agree* with the quotations.

-A8

[kerryusama04]

So you believe that Rome teaches contrary to the Bible?