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A Sober Assessment of Reformational Drinking
Modern Reformation ^ | April 2000 | Jim West

Posted on 11/05/2006 6:57:21 AM PST by Gamecock

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To: Gamecock

I can't provide a direct correlation between the rise of Dispensationalism, Fundamentalism and anti-alcoholism, but there certainly is an implied correlation.

Dispensationalism led to a wide-spread evangelical movement based on the immminent return Christ, which prompted the beginnings of Fundamentalism in 1878 at Niagra, which continued into the 1920's with C.I. Scofield and leading the pack.

The idea of Christ's imminent return led to prohibitions against being in places of worldly entertainment, including theatres and bars, etc. The idea was, "you wouldn't want to be in a place like that when Christ returned, would you?"

Concurrent with that were fiery evangelists such as Billy Sunday whose messages were heavy on the evils of alcohol. They in turn, walked hand in hand with the prohibitionists, who themselves had a sort of evangelical fervor and bent.

From that time forward, it has been Fundamentalists, primarily, who put heavy stock in total abstinence. For example, attendance at major Fundamentalist institutions such as Wheaton, Moody, Taylor, Trinity, Bob Jones, etc., was dependent on a pledge of abstinence, and in some cases, a statement that one has not engaged in such activity as drinking for at least the past year.

Note: this is a quick overview, not intended as particularly scholarly, but intended to demonstrate a rather (possible) coincidental relationship of anti-alcoholism and Fundamentalism.

Have I included enough caveats?


21 posted on 11/05/2006 9:40:43 AM PST by norge
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To: ConservativeMind
Of course Christ drank wine. But we know of no example of an occasion in which he ever even remotely started to lose control of Himself.

He was accused of being a drunkard.

22 posted on 11/05/2006 10:01:00 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: norge

I agree with your historical assessment too. I think it is tied in with Carrie Nation and Prohibition as well. Assemblies of God, I know, prohibits drinking, and I believe that denomination started up around then.


23 posted on 11/05/2006 10:03:24 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: Tax-chick
I don't know specifically, but there are too many passages that say "wine and strong drink".

24 posted on 11/05/2006 10:05:15 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: jude24
He was accused of being a drunkard.

Honestly Jude, do you ever think he was drunk?

25 posted on 11/05/2006 10:12:40 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Common sense. Wine wouldn't have been a sacrament in those days; it would have been just a alcoholic drink, among other alcoholic drinks. If you drink wine, and if you like the taste of any other alcoholic drinks, you drink them.

If Jesus drank wine, I don't see the problem with Him drinking other alcoholic drinks.

But He did drink wine, which, for those who think alcoholic drinks are evil, would mean that John, a teetotaler, was holier than Jesus.

26 posted on 11/05/2006 10:13:11 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Read my post


27 posted on 11/05/2006 10:17:58 AM PST by Gamecock (Pelagianism is the natural heresy of zealous Christians who are not interested in theology. J.I.P.)
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To: P-Marlowe
Honestly Jude, do you ever think he was drunk?

No, but clearly he enjoyed his wine - and made his own. It's not like he brought Grape Juice to the Wedding at Cana - he made several kegs worth of wine.

28 posted on 11/05/2006 10:18:22 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: P-Marlowe; jude24

He was a bartender at a Jewish wedding.


29 posted on 11/05/2006 10:19:49 AM PST by Gamecock (Pelagianism is the natural heresy of zealous Christians who are not interested in theology. J.I.P.)
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To: William Terrell; Tax-chick
I don't know specifically, but there are too many passages that say "wine and strong drink".

There are 14, and most of them frown upon "strong drink" except when a person is on his deathbed.

(Numbers 6:3 KJV) He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

(Numbers 28:7 KJV) And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

(Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV) And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

(Judges 13:4 KJV) Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:

(Judges 13:7 KJV) But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

(1 Samuel 1:15 KJV) And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.

(Proverbs 20:1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

(Proverbs 31:6 KJV) Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

(Isaiah 5:22 KJV) Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

(Isaiah 28:7 KJV) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

(Isaiah 29:9 KJV) Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

(Isaiah 56:12 KJV) Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

(Micah 2:11 KJV) If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

(Luke 1:15 KJV) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

30 posted on 11/05/2006 10:20:43 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Gamecock
At a Jewish wedding with an open bar. The master of ceremonies for the wedding remarked that the best wine had been brought out after everyone was sloshed.
31 posted on 11/05/2006 10:22:09 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24
No, but clearly he enjoyed his wine - and made his own. It's not like he brought Grape Juice to the Wedding at Cana - he made several kegs worth of wine.

He also created poppys and coca trees and marijuana plants.

Do you think he rolled his own?

32 posted on 11/05/2006 10:22:41 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Gamecock
He was a bartender at a Jewish wedding.

Bartenders don't drink the product.

33 posted on 11/05/2006 10:23:25 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
(Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV) And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

This is a divine endorsement of strong drink - from one's tithe!

And somehow, it's a bad thing?

34 posted on 11/05/2006 10:23:33 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: P-Marlowe

He explicitly made the booze so people could drink up. Ps. 104 explicitly said that God gave men wine to gladden their hearts. He said no such thing about cocaine, heroin, nor marijuana. Your reasoning is specious.


35 posted on 11/05/2006 10:25:09 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: P-Marlowe
Bartenders don't drink the product.

What bars have you been in?

36 posted on 11/05/2006 10:25:41 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24
What strong drink is Moses referencing? Back then they had wine and beer and milk.

They certainly didn't have vodka, tequila, whiskey, gin or anything even closely resembling what we call "strong drink" today.

For all we know "stong drink" may have been coffee or herbal tea.

37 posted on 11/05/2006 10:28:03 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: jude24
What bars have you been in?

I have never in my life witnessed a bartender drinking on the job. Have you?

What bars have you been drinking in?

38 posted on 11/05/2006 10:29:26 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Then why was he called a drunkard?

Either you believe Scripture or you don't. Which is it counselor*?

*little c, not to be confused with the title for Christ.

39 posted on 11/05/2006 10:30:54 AM PST by Gamecock (Pelagianism is the natural heresy of zealous Christians who are not interested in theology. J.I.P.)
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To: Gamecock
Then why was he called a drunkard?

I've been called a lot of names.

Are you suggesting that the Lord was a drunkard?

40 posted on 11/05/2006 10:32:23 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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