Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[1000 silverlings]

According to the scripture, when we enter Heaven we are glorified. Up until then, because of Christ's sacrifice,and because He is our high priest, we may come boldly before the throne, no other intermediary needed. We come before the throne, but we are still on earth.

[Zuriel]

**Here's your dilemma:**

No dilemma; I simply failed to express myself by omitting one word. I will now word the comment more appropriately:

"Actually shocked to see blind leaders of the blind ATTEMPTING to crucify Him afresh."

I do NOT believe the bread becomes flesh, or the wine becomes blood.

Sorry for the delayed reply, I was away. I would say more, but it will have to wait. Sometimes I'm only around a pc for a few minutes a week.

[adiaireton8]

Our sanctification is accomplished at our glorification.

What exactly do you mean by the term 'glorification', and where in Scripture does it teach that glorification is instantaneous and that sanctification takes place at the instant of glorification?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

See here.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Catholic priests and bishops never attempt to crucify Christ afresh in the Eucharist. (If you think they do, what is your evidence?) In the mass, the priest offers up to the Father the very same sacrifice (i.e. Christ) that was offered up on Calvary, not a 'recrucified Christ', but Christ Himself.

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank y’all for your posts and for sharing your insights!

Protests that predestination should not be compared to strong determinism – because one is according to God’s will and the other is dumb, blind chance are neither accurate nor relevant.

Strong determinism is also heralded by Deists who most certainly do believe it was God’s will, that He had a purpose – but they believe He has had nothing further to do with Creation, He is “out of the picture”. They would say in effect “Everything God does is perfect and with a perfect Creation, what is left to do?”

IOW, a person who asserts “strong determinism” is not necessarily an atheist who believes everything happens by dumb, blind chance (without a purpose.)

It is irrelevant anyway because the effect of both views is exactly the same, i.e. the mind, soul, spirit, consciousness can be no more than an epiphenomenon, a secondary phenomenon which can cause nothing to happen.

That a man cannot willfully cause anything to happen means that all laws – whether of God or of man – are punishing a mindless material entity for something it could not not do. It is like hitting a rock for falling.

That is why the doctrine of predestination only (as compared to a mixture of both predestination and free will) – sets off my “Holy Spirit radar” – and it is why I bother to post on any predestination thread.

Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. – Psalms 89:14

1000, you said:

An unsaved person does not have the Spirit, so he isn't either resisting or grieving God. But if God determined to save that soul, there is no amount of resisting that will stop it. If there is, then God isn't God.

Then how do you explain Stephen’s testimony when he was filled with the Holy Spirit?

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. – Acts 7:51

More importantly, how do you explain Jesus' words:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:47-48

Concerning the Urim and Thummin, you said:

Now back to the Urim and the Thummin: we don't know from scripture exactly what they were, most believe they were either jewels on the priest's breastplate, or, actual people who were gifted with the Spirit, or in other words, special prophets in the service of the Lord. What they were not, is some kind of Jewish ouija board.

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia has to say on the subject (with Scripture references): URIM AND THUMMIM

Objects connected with the breastplate of the high priest, and used as a kind of divine oracle…

I Sam. xxviii. 3-6 mentions three methods of divine communication: (1) the dream-oracle, of which frequent mention is made also in Assyrian and Babylonian literature; (2) the oracle by means of the Urim (here, undoubtedly, an abbreviation for "Urim and Thummim"); (3) the oracle by the word of the Prophets, found among all Semitic nations….

The Urim and Thummim are implied, also, whereever in the earlier history of Israel mention is made of asking counsel of the Lord by means of the ephod (Josh. ix. 14; Judges i. 1-2; xx. 18 [rejected as a later gloss from ib. i. 1 by most commentators], 26-28; I Sam. x. 22; xiv. 3, 18, 36 et seq.; xxii. 10, 13; xxiii. 2, 4, 6, 9-12; xxviii. 6; xxx. 7 et seq.; II Sam. ii. 1; v. 19, 23 et seq.; xxi. 1. On the nature of the ephod see G. F. Moore, "Judges," 1895, pp. 380-399, where copious references and the literature are given; idem, "Ephod," in Cheyne and Black, "Encyc. Bibl."; and especially T. C. Foote, "The Ephod," in "Jour. Bib. Lit." [1902] xxi. 1-48). In all cases except I Sam. x. 22 and II Sam. v. 23 et seq., the answer is either "Yes" or "No." It has been suggested by Riehm and others that these two passages have undergone editorial changes. After the death of David no instance is mentioned in the Old Testament of consulting the Lord by means of the Urim and Thummim or the ephod. This desuetude is undoubtedly occasioned by the growing influence of the Old Testament prophecy.

[.30Carbine]

It's not an either/or issue for me. Thank you so much for thinking of me in posting your comments! I admire you very much.

[Uncle Chip]

I pose this question:

Is it possible to just simply say that the only things that we know for sure that are predestinated are the things that are prophesied by the Holy Scriptures, that not everything is predestinated, but if it is prophesied in the Scriptures, then it is predestinated from that point forward, and therefore will come to pass.

In light of the above, I do not see my name prophesied in the Scriptures as destined for heaven, therefore how can I be predestinated to go there?

[Uncle Chip]

Could someone please post the Scriptures [just the Scriptures without comment] that deal with Predestination [the elect, foreknowledge, the chosen . . . ] so that we can take a good hard look at them and examine them more carefully to see what they really say?

[DungeonMaster]

Could someone please post the Scriptures [just the Scriptures without comment] that deal with Predestination [the elect, foreknowledge, the chosen . . . ] so that we can take a good hard look at them and examine them more carefully to see what they really say?

There are a lot of them but these come to mind first.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

[Uncle Chip]

The Holy Spirit and the Scriptures go hand in hand. It was the Holy Spirit that "inspired" them and it is the Holy Spirit that helps people to understand them. Since the Holy Spirit is the author of the Scriptures, wouldn't it be appropriate to have the author's help in understanding what they mean, rather than a magisterium somewhere who may or may not be hearing from the same Spirit?

[blue-duncan]

"It's not an either/or issue for me."

Nor is it for me. That's why Paul says Phl 4:8-9 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you." Free will or not, predestined or not, Think and Do! and the God of Peace shall be with you.

[Uncle Chip]

Thank you, that is a great start. The reason that I ask is that the Reformation side always talks about Sola Scriptura, but when it comes to Predestination, they quote Calvin and his followers profusely instead of the Scriptures which may or may not really teach what Calvin taught.

Were Calvin's words "inspired" by God. The Calvinists have their own "Tradition" don't they? Just like the Roman Catholics? If the writings of the Roman Catholic Fathers are not Scripture, then why do many adhere to the words of Calvin and Luther, as if their words were somehow "inspired" by the Holy Spirit?

Isn't that what everyone should be remembering this October 31. Sola Scriptura applies to Calvin and Luther and their magisterium as well, doesn't it? Or do they have a special dispensation? Perhaps someone should start a new treatise to see if the evidence is really there.

THE EVIDENCE FOR PREDESTINATION

1] Evidence from the Old Testament:

2] Evidence from the New Testament:

3] Evidence from the Writings of the Church Fathers [including Calvin and Luther . . . , none of whose writings can be completely trusted]:

Let's see what we discover about the evidence for Predestination in the Scriptures as we are uncovering the truth about that legendary Bishopric of Saint Peter in Rome from the Ante-Nicene Fathers. We can handle two treatises at the same time, can't we?

[DungeonMaster]

I never ever quite Calvin when arguing predestination.

[DungeonMaster]

"quote" not "quite". I always do that.

[Uncle Chip]

Great --- let's see what we find --- just the Scriptures --- no commentary or explanation. I am really interested and I am sure others as well.

{I knew you meant "quote" even though you didn't "quite" spell it right. I do it all the time and just trust those on the other side to use their spell checks when I fail to use mine.}

[Quix]

QUITE SO! Quite so!

Am glad you're the one who says things so much better than I tend to.

[DungeonMaster]

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1cor 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”[

[Gamecock]

More importantly, how do you explain Jesus' words:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:47-48

The answer that no one has ever given us Calvinists around here is why do some respond and some don't? The verse you provided does not answer that question, but rather how is one saved.

The above verse is an outward call. Those who God foreordained for His own purpose will hear that and respond with faith. Those who are not foreordained will think it is foolish.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined [God choose us] he also called,[ the verse you cite] and those whom he called he also justified,[He calls, he justifies] and those whom he justified he also glorified.[We will be at home with Him one day].

[Uncle Chip]

Take your time --- there is no hurry ---- see if you can number them 1], then 2] . . . in some kind of order from Gospels through Epistles so that we get everything and then we can eliminate those that are not evidence.

Remember: any of the evidence for such will have to be defended. And the question will be asked: How does that teach Predestination? The burden of proof will be on the affirmative. So think carefully about putting up anything that will not stand up to scrutiny.