Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
No place in Scripture is there anything that shows that Peter's Roman bishopric was not 25 years.
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There is only one Law of God.
Pray for the excommunicated person and attempt to persuade them to seek reconciliation with the Church.
Why can't you do what the Bible says?
1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
What do you think of the verses where Jesus admonishes the hierarchal and untouchable church of his time?
Here is another illustration of the folly of the doctrines of men set up by the church:
Mat 21:23 When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?" Mat 21:24 Jesus said to them, "I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. Mat 21:25 "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Then why did you not believe him?' Mat 21:26 "But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet." Mat 21:27 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Perhaps I'll have to wait for God to show such, until some others come to mind.
"You should reread your history and look for objective sources outside your church."
Why is that an ad hominem? Because it is about the person rather than the issue being discussed. In particular, it is saying, "You are ignorant; you need to go learn." That's an ad hominem. To avoid the ad hominem, instead of speaking about one's interlocutor, speak about the issue. So, for example, say, "That's not true; these sources show that what you said is false."
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There are LOTS of elements of others' posting styles which are annoying, bothersome and sometimes outrageous or even infuriating to me.
Other than playing MIRROR, satire, tweaking games about some of them, I very much construe reality as it well within their purvue to post in whatever style they choose. If I wish to avoid reading them, I can do that.
Yeah, anti-INSTITUTIONS-AS-GOD-ISM is pretty big on my priority list.
PRAISE GOD FOR SOME TRUTHFULNESS about history!
Actually the group leadership of the larger group locally is VERY CONSISTENT with I Corinthians 14.
Interesting how the Biblical model was followed so widely for quite a number of years, decades before the institutional rot set in.
The Law of God is unified in the sense of being complete. But it also has different parts, concerning different categories and aspects of Christian living. Jesus Himself gives us *two* greatest commandments. Moses gives us *ten* commandments, along with ceremonial laws, moral laws, and political laws.
Why can't you do what the Bible says? 1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
How is praying for the excommunicated person and trying to persuade him to seek reconciliation with the Church a case of failing to follow 1 Tim 5:19?
What do you think of the verses where Jesus admonishes the hierarchal and untouchable church of his time?
The Church was founded by Christ on Peter the rock (Matt 16:18). So, I think you are misinterpreting the passages to which you are referring. The Twelve Apostles are the foundation stones of the Church (see Revelation 21:14).
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I don't recall my fingers stuttering. I don't recall mentioning the laity. That was not my point. The point I was responding to was that the Bishops--AND PARTICULARLY THE !!!LEADING, TOP, [POLITICALLY SUCCESSFUL] ROMAN!!! BISHOP et al decided orthodoxy flawlessly . . . particularly compared to the 20,000 Protestant idiot groups.
WHEN that clearly has not been the case at many times in the Roman group's history. I think the points below reiterated will affirm that.
Absolute power corrupting absolutely has been exemplified worst in RELIGIOUS organizations up until probably Hitler.
First, neither the Pope nor the bishops have "absolute power".
Methinks that the folks on the racks during the Inquisition would beg to differ. There were other similar periods when the power to declare Church law and have it faithfully carried out was rather more absolute than it often appears in our era.
Seemingly, on your view, Christ should not have ordained Apostles and bishops.
HOGWASH. God ordained/anointed SPIRITUAL leaders throughout history. AND, HE TOOK THEM OUT OR REMOVED THE ANOINTING from every remotely long line of them sooner or later because they failed to walk intimately with HIM and do HIS THINGS vs their own stuff.
The fact that secular political authorities sometimes abuse their authority does not imply that we should rebel against the bishops, or that orthodoxy is not determined by them.
I'm not talking about SECULAR POLITICAL authorities. I'm talking about RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION POLITICAL authorities. The Pope and Cardinals have been plenty abusive 100's of tiems, conservatively--more likely thousands--over the course of history. This is common knowledge. Better scholars than I on the topic can rub faces in such historical facts if it's demanded. Not my preference. The Inquisition is but one period of such.
Or, your anti-institutional bias is blinding you. Which is more likely, that you are blinded, or that the great saint Augustine (and all the fathers, since they all agreed with him) were blinded?
I think God and Augustine himself will answer that in the direction I've posted . . . in due course.
it is not the Roman Hierarchy per se that determines orthdoxy--as 20,000+ different John SKERRIAN FLIPFLOPS
Please name one 'flipflop' in Catholic *dogma*. Just one.
I think eggregious indulgences would be one. Papal philandering outside of marriage could be construed as another. I'm sure other folks with a better memory for such could list dozens if not 100's of such cases. There were variouis pollitical land grabs at various points in history that were not at all Christ-like--or even remotely moral.
Most refreshing to see such integrity about history from such a source.
Thanks.
Gets to be the issue of AUTHORITY, POWER, CONTROL over all Christendom . . . EXTRAPOLATED, shoehorned into existence from that vague metaphorical passage about Peter. Then, they have to jury-rig and mangle history to support all THAT! Gets to be a monstrous house of cards encrusted with lots of fossilized junk purporting to be parading about in robes of righteousness that smell much the opposite. But that's normal for instutitions of man Roman AND Protestant.
Well said.
The church was clearly congregational with elders determined from the community by their "walk".
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INDEED.
The Scriptural instruction was to seek out the lowly, insignificant wise old codgers to pronounce decisive leadership printiples, truths, decisions. Sounds rather opposite to the pontifical style.
Just happened and happens to be GOD'S STYLE.
Yes, we have to follow our conscience regarding the moral law. But the laity have no authority with respect to ecclesial or canon law.
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Quite a convenient slight of hand the enemy has foisted upon Precious Roman believers to neutralize Holy Spirit within them and their priesthood of believers status IN HIM under Christ and CHRIST ALONE.
I consider that perspective on history to be very out of touch with the true objective history.
create the appearance of a contradiction
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We don't need to do any such thing. The historical facts present plenty of that.
No place in Scripture is there anything that shows that Peter's Roman bishopric was not 25 years.
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And NO PLACE in Scripture indicates such even began, at all.
Extrapolations, inferences, human postulations on a vague metaphorical phrase . . . just doesn't cut it to any level remotely sufficient to assert such an important issue.
Excellent points.
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