Major Baptist seminary rejects practice of speaking in tongues

Kansas City Star ^ | Oct. 17, 2006 | Brett Hoffman

[split]

FORT WORTH, Texas - After a Baptist pastor said in a chapel service at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary that he sometimes speaks in tongues when he prays, seminary trustees adopted a resolution Tuesday that states the institution will not tolerate the promotion of the practice of speaking in tongues.

The resolution: "Southwestern will not knowingly endorse in any way, advertise, or commend the conclusions of the contemporary charismatic movement including private prayer language. Neither will Southwestern knowingly employ professors or administrators who promote such practices."

Speaking in tongues is described in the Bible as a spiritual gift from God that empowers humans to speak in other languages. But many contemporary theologians teach that the practice was distinctly for first-century Christians. However, in the past century, Pentecostal and charismatic Christians have contended that speaking in tongues should be practiced in today's churches.

Patterson said he has consistently maintained a different view.

"I have opposed (speaking in tongues) for all of these years because I think it's an erroneous interpretation of the Bible," he said. "Southern Baptists traditionally have stood against what we feel like are the excesses of the charismatic movement. All we're doing is restating where we've always been."

Baptists are "the most intense advocates of religious liberty," Patterson said, defending the right of other Christians to believe in speaking in tongues. "But don't wear a Yankee uniform when you play for the Mets."

"We interpret the Scriptures in such a way that we do not see room for a private prayer language and we're saying we will not waver on that," Redmond said.

[trillabodilla]

I think praying in tongues and also the gift of tongues (they are two different things) are scriptural.

They are a beautiful gift from the Lord.

I will make no further posts because I don't want to get into a flame war.

[pamlet]

I've always thought that the groanings of the Holy Spirit in Romans 8 is the Holy Spirit uttering on our behalf ... not THROUGH us... the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf to God the Father in a spiritual sense - not a physical sense of coming out of OUR mouth..

This is the closest scripture I've seen to a "private prayer" language .. are there others? I've always wondered how the whole "private" thing came about - as opposed to other scripture where it clearly states there needs to be an interpreter, etc.

[chesley]

OK. But wasn't that the whole point? People seem to have disagreements as to God's theology? My opinion, for what it is worth, is that like-minded people should congregate together as the best way to ensure the earthly unity of the God's Church.

[Quix]

I'm not bothered much by folks who wish to throw rocks at what Holy Spirit does in and through me.

Holy Spirit has done unusual things thoughout the Old Testament as well as the New. The unusual is NORMAL for Holy Spirit.

Certainly there is some research to suggest that praying in tongues is a kind of meditative state for many who exercise such. Meditating on God and what He is and/or might be doing in one's life is a pretty Biblical thing to do.

Many noncharismatic/nonPentecostal churches put their parishioners into a hypnotized meditative state by the cadence of their preaching . . . the sameness of the form of service etc. I don't find that very edifying or Biblical.

But, praying in tongues is usually, for me, not a meditative state at all. It's virtually like praying in English except that . . . as St Paul says in Scripture--one is praying with my conscious understanding and one is merely with varying degrees of understanding of one's spirit and . . . to some degree . . . what Holy Spirit shares with one consciouisly in English what is being prayed in tongues. But many folks are not taught to tune in "in their spirit" as they pray in tongues.

Then there's praying in tongues--most commonly--I think of a need in English and pray for a spell in tongues until I feel a peace that that specific need has been covered. Then, I move on to the next concern and think about that in English maybe while I pray in tongues about it until I feel a release.

Much of praying in tongues is listening, tuning in--in my spirit to Holy Spirit for whatever He might say about the topic of concern.

It's not surprising that Scripture says to Meditate on His Word day and night and that the enemy also has a counterfeit meditation on unhelpful things.

Equating a mental state while praying in tongues with a satanic meditation substitute is greatly inaccurate and borderline hazardous or worse in terms of Scripture.

Some believe that ascribing to Holy Spirit things of satan is equal to the unpardonable sin.

[Quix]

What about the private prayer language, you and others have referred to, is it a language someone would recognize if it were written down?
= = =

MUCH AGREE.

[Quix]

I think that's the main one. I think others require more of an extrapolation.

Haven't you ever been in a big need state when you'd prayed all you could pray in English and still had a burden in your heart, spirit, mind . . .

And a kind of groaning, anguished muttering was what resulted?

I sure have. Certainly tongues were a welcome relief in expressing such hard to express anguish.

I've also had extended times of literally just groaning in deep and intense anguish for many minutes and I was utterly confident Holy Spirit was putting meaning to my groans before The Father. It was a GREAT COMFORT. No surprise given that He's The Comforter.

[Quix]

Unity of mind, heart and spirit is best in worship etc.

But SUBMITTING TO HOLY SPIRIT IN A GIVEN LOCALE, SERVICE . . . SITUATION . . .

IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND POWERFUL THING.

THERE IS PRAYER POWER IN PRAYING UNITY.

Most disunity is over pride, turf and control issues. Those unGodly motivations need put on the altar.

Those "reasons" tend to hide under the pretense of "defending doctrinal purity."

[Stone Mountain]

It has been recoreded, and the content of the language is as literate as if it were spoken in the persons native tounge.

Do you have a link for this - very interesting!

[nmh]

"Seriously, nmh, there is much in the Bible you are not addressing. Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) is distinctly in the Bible. "

Of course there is a lot in the Bible! Volumes have been written about the Bible, however I find the Bible more than adequate in letting you know what it true and false! Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.

While we're talking about tongues, explain to me WHY it is needed TODAY? WHY? What is the point? A charade? Hearing sounds that the majority of people can't understand? What is the point in that when you have the WRITTEN word readily available in the U.S. so far ... . Could it be that fallen angels, remember, 1/3 of them followed Lucifer. What an opportunity this is for him ... recall they are countless. Do you really think that they wouldn't capitalize on this? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Again, WHY is this needed when you have the WRITTEN WORD of God? Talk is cheap. Put it in writing - and that's exactly what God did - the Bible!

"So are the verses you quoted, of course. But other Christians find purpose in other portions of the Bible. You say that you don't think I'm learned enough to talk about this. You're incorrect."

I chose my words careful from the Bible. Did it ever occur to you that Paul was speaking to people of other LANGUAGES to communicate the Gospel to them? A language they could UNDERSTAND? I don't think God wants us to ignore common sense. From what I have seen you write, I beg to differ on your knowledge of the Bible.

"Some might say I don't properly "discern" the meaning of Biblical passages. That's fine, but I do know them, and know them very well. "

You may believe you know them but discernment is key. What's the point of knowing them if you don't understand them and can't properly apply what yo believe you know. It's pointless.

"At one time, in my youth, I found it interesting and useful to memorize entire books of the Bible. I got a free two-week stay at a church camp one Summer for memorizing the entire book of I Corinthians. I also memorized all four of the Gospels, just because I was challenged to do so."

Head knowledge is fine for anyone. How's your heart knowledge? Memorization is fine ... let me give you an example of what I mean ... our daughter memorized the Gettysburg address. She was one month shy of turning seven. The words came out just fine however she didn't understand the CONTEXT of the speech. She didn't understand what was going on with the people. WHY Lincoln was there. So, we filled her in through videos and books so she had the proper CONTEXT and UNDERSTANDING to give the proper passionate delivery of that famous speech. Little did Lincoln know that we would "long remember what we did there". When she had all that information, the speech came alive! There was passion and humbleness at the right passages. She had head knowledge and heart knowledge.

"No, I know the Bible very well. I was once a very devoted Christian. I came to my atheism in my 20s. Before that, I was on the verge of attending seminary and joining the ministry. "

You may not want to answer this publically ... but if you would ever want to discuss privately what drove you to atheism, keep my e-mail in mind. Don't let other mortals create cynicism. They will. There are hypocrites out there too. None of this is the way ... we all fall short however we must strive to do our best and be consistent.

"You know some Bible verses, but are, apparently, ignorant of many others. Many might be worth your learning."

No, I'm not ignorant of others. I simply see no need to write up a storm and drop in everything, including the kitchen sink! My suggestion to you would be to focus on this topic before moving on to others. I don't believe glossing over things is learning. You still haven't answered my questions on WHY tongues are needed TODAY. That tells me you lack enough knowledge to answer it.

I also get the impression that you'd like to make the Law of Contradiciton true. Do you really believe that opposing doctrines are all true at the same time? Do you? Or do you believe that something is true or something is false? It can only be one way or the other. It's not true for me and false for you. That might be a better starting point for you ... .

I also find it interesting that you often show up at these topics. Could it be that you are not at peace? You don't have to answer that ... your responses tell me that.

[nmh]

You and I are not on the same page to begin with.

I'm not Catholic and you are. So for you to believe in tongues ... something else we don't agree on.

[Quix]

There have been such. I don't have any links.

I know that Dr Walter Martin's throat Dr--he was a public speaker--was I think Armenian. The Doc was in a prayer group and a message in tongues came forth . . . I don't recall if it was interpretation or that the tongue was in Armenian--I think the latter--and it spoke of the Doc becoming a missionary to the middle east etc. Which he was shocked to hear.

Some several years later, it came about exactly as predicted in that prayer session. I think that surprised Dr Martin. But he knew his doc real well and became a believer in such things.

Dave Hunt took over Dr Martin's ministry and then began trashing a lot that Holy Spirit does. He's on dangerous ground, imho.

[Quix]

Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.
= = = =

That's simply not true.

Many times praying in tongues has been literally life saving in my life. And, it's been a channel of blessing in counseling situations many times. I'd be stuck with a particularly difficult situation and we'd pray and Holy Spirit would give me a question to ask or a statement to make and the impasse would be instantly over.

And, there's NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE TO INDICATE SUCH A CESSATIONIST PERSPECTIVE. NOTHING.

That perspective is 100% extrapolation, inference, assumption.

[Quix]

I'm not Catholic and you are. So for you to believe in tongues ... something else we don't agree on.
= = =

LOL. WHAT A LAUGH.

I've never been a Roman believer. Never will be a Roman believer.

An interesting assumption.

It seems I don't agree with a number of assumptions.

[Quix]

While we're talking about tongues, explain to me WHY it is needed TODAY? WHY? What is the point? A charade? Hearing sounds that the majority of people can't understand? What is the point in that when you have the WRITTEN word readily available in the U.S.
= = = =

REASONS FOR TONGUES:

1. IT'S BIBLICAL--THAT'S REASON ENOUGH.

2. I often run out of ways to express my concerns and needs in English. Holy Spirit perfectly expresses my deep inner concerns and needs, including spiritual needs FAR BETTER than I ever could. Scripture is fairly clear about that function.

3. Properly exercised, tongues and interpretation can lead believers as well as unbelievers into a deeper understanding of God.

4. Scripture does not indicate whether to buy auto "A" or "B;" marry gal "A" or "B." Praying repeatedly over time or even in one session can release Holy Spirit birthed understanding, insight, word from The Lord as to what wisdom is in many situations very specific to the moment and the individual.

5. When tongues is a known language in a witnessing situation, the impact is impressive and Godly.

6. Praying in tongues is a great agent of peace in my life.

7. Praying in tongues is a great agent of RELEASE in my life of troublesome concerns as well as

8. releasing great urges to worship God in more intense and intimate ways.

9. A Holy Spirit orchestrated singing in tongues session spontaneously arising in a large group meeting is one of the few HEAVENLY experiences I've experienced on this earth. Unbelievers are characteristically moved and awed by such a phenomenon. All in the room are brought closer to God as a result.

10. Praying in tongues can be very exhortive, instructive as Holy Spirit does a deeper inner work within the one praying in tongues.

I'm sure that there are other reasons. But, that's enough to be rationalized against in hostility to Holy Spirit. I wouldn't want to contribut to someone's error or sin by giving them MORE true Holy Spirit birthed helps to criticize.

[pamlet]

To be honest I've never been moved to utter anything than English... Yes I've prayed until I could not figure out what to say.. but I also knew the Father was understanding as the Holy Spirit was interceding for me...

I still honest do not understand how the groaning's translate into something a person is doing ...

ISV -
Rom 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words,
Rom 8:27 and the one who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to God's will.

"the Spirit himself intercedes with groans too deep for words" It doesn't say the Spirit GIVES the groans.. or the Spirit groans through you ... it says the "Spirit Himself intercedes"

I'm truly not "picking" on you ... when I was younger I attended a church that made a LOT of "private prayer language" ... yet no one could ever give me scripture to see where it applied...

Now as to public speaking of tongues... miracles... etc.. I think that COULD happen - but it's important to be discerning as to what is REALLY happening ... and what is a contrivance of man ... by contrivance I don't neccessarily mean a purposeful deception - but something that may not be of GOD - but of emotion..

[Quix]

Talk is cheap

HOLY SPIRIT
TALK
IS
NOT
CHEAP!

And, it CAN be spiritually hazardous to assert that it is.

[Quix]

I understand your perspective.

[chesley]

I tend to agree. But where are you going with this? I just say that the Baptists, or any group, have the right, indeed the obligation, to say, "After careful and mature consideration of this issue, we find it not to be in accordance with God's will, as we understand it to the best of our limited human abilities, and we refuse to be associated with this idea."

This is what the SBs did. Those that don't like it can go elsewhere.

[Quix]

I mostly agree with you.

But it's sad, to me.

And, they are really missing out and teaching others to miss out. But, God has all that factored in, somehow.

And, will be changing much of it in coming months and years.

[MineralMan]

"Speaking in tongues is NOT needed TODAY! Yes, when the Holy Spirit came people spoke in tongues - this was PRIOR to the WRITTEN WORD.
"

It isn't? How do you know this? Actually, Paul's words were written, so this was not prior to the written word. Are Paul's letters no longer relevant? That would come as an enormous suprise to all those denominations that focus primarily on Paul's letters.

Are you authoritative enough to tell other what is and is not needed in worship? That's pretty bold, it seems to me.

Paul instructed the young churches in doctrine, and most churches use his words today to help them understand what to do. Are you saying that Paul's words are no longer of value to today's church?

It's all academic to me, of course.