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Learn from Pentecostals, Catholic leader says [Kasper alert]
Post-Gazette ^ | Tuesday, October 10, 2006 | Ann Rodgers

Posted on 10/11/2006 9:29:49 AM PDT by Antioch

Before criticizing Pentecostal churches that draw Catholics as members, Catholic leaders should ask why their own parishes aren't meeting the needs of those who leave, the Vatican's top ecumenical representative said yesterday at Duquesne University. "Our response cannot be in the form of a polemical approach, leaving ourselves to condemn the activities of other groups," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Such an approach "is not constructive and could even be counter-productive," he said. While Cardinal Kasper is known for outreach to traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches, he said it is crucial to be engaged with a diverse global Pentecostal movement that now claims 600 million adherents. He spoke to an audience of about 225, including Bishop Paul Bradley, administrator of the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, Metropolitan Basil Schott of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Episcopal Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh and Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church of Johnstown.

(Excerpt) Read more at post-gazette.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: ecumenicism; kasper; pentecostalism
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To: FJ290; Quix
The notion of tongues is obscure in the Scriptures.

We know for a fact that the Spirit imparts the gift.

We know that it manifested itself in Peter as an ability to be understood by many people of different languages simultaneously.

We know that it manifested itself to Paul as Christians who spoke in languages that required interpretation by other members of the congregation.

But the opposite of the Petrine phenomenon - a person speaking so that no one present could understand (whereas when Peter spoke in tongues everyone present understood) - isn't Scripturally attested.

The Pentecostal phenomenon of tongues seems to be the opposite of Peter's and significantly different from the phenomenon described by Paul.

81 posted on 10/12/2006 2:15:50 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Quix
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Put it context though, Quix. Put in the verse directly after that.

"But let all things be done decently, and according to order."

I realize it's much more COMFORTABLE to all kinds of fleshly sensibilities to forbid such.

Huh? How do you rationalize that statement in light of St. Paul saying this:

And God indeed hath set SOME IN THE CHURCH; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

Clearly, not everyone in the Church is given the gift of tongues as everyone in the Church isn't an Apostle, preacher, teacher, etc. Yet, if you go into any church where charismatic practices are the "norm" there are WAY too many of them having this "gift."

82 posted on 10/12/2006 2:53:06 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: wideawake
The Pentecostal phenomenon of tongues seems to be the opposite of Peter's and significantly different from the phenomenon described by Paul.

Agreed!

83 posted on 10/12/2006 2:54:07 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Next time your co-religionists are attacking "intelligent design"(a form of Theistic evolution which claims that G-d's activity is scientifically observable) on the grounds that G-d doesn't "interfere" with the universe He created, I hope you will rebuke them.

I have challenged them on it. Whether they listen to me or not is up to them, LOL!

I used to be Catholic, you know.

I don't recall you ever telling me that and if you did I apologize for forgetting. Sorry you left the faith and I will pray that one day you will return. You will always be welcomed back!

84 posted on 10/12/2006 2:58:13 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Quix

Thanks for your correction my dear brother,

You are correct!


85 posted on 10/12/2006 2:59:03 PM PDT by DarthVader (Conservatives aren't always right , but Liberals are almost always wrong.)
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To: DarthVader
Yes,but it also says that he that speaks in a tongue should pray for interpration. The authentic gift will always have someone or others with the ability to interpret.

Authenticity by what measure? Look, I can sit down and speak a lot of gobblydegook and have someone who is just as heretical as I am say they understand what the heck I am saying!

I have already discussed that tongues were used to spread the gospel to people of various languages. Here's a good example:

"And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood."

See? That passage right there shows that it means the Hebrew language.

Tongues was another way to say a peoples language.

86 posted on 10/12/2006 3:11:29 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: wideawake
The notion of tongues is obscure in the Scriptures.

I can think of doctrines based on one or 2-3 Scriptures much more fiercely defended by more of Christendom than the many following verses attest to tongues about. I don't call ____ verses OBSCURE! LOL.

[1] Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

[2] Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

WELL REPORTED in modern era literature though not super frequent or common.

[3]Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

[4]Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Folks speaking languages which they have not learned by Holy Spirit is also reported in the modern literature though infrequently.

[5]Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

[6]Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Very commonly reported in the literature from all around the world.

[7] 1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

AMPLILFIED: 10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight ([b]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

[8] 1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Guess if we're going to remove tongues due to the supposed obscurity of it's mention, we'd best get rid of teachers, too.

[ 9] 1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

[10] 1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

THE MESSAGE: 1 If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.

AMPLIFIED: 1IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [a]as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

[11] 1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:7-9 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 13 (Whole Chapter) [12] 1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that you all spake with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speakes with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Oh, dear, another verse that has to be rationalized away as not applying to those Paul was writing to-- THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH. Though I suppose some arrogant idiot groups would be proud to consider themselves NOT NEW TESTAMENT! Sadly.

[13] 1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

[14] 1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

Oh, dear--"all" can't possibly include all New Testament Believers! Oh, dear, Then it would include me. Oh, dear, then I'd have to alter my belief's and practices! NO WAY! God must be wrong. /satire

[15] 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, says the Lord.

[16] 1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

[17]1 Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

[18] 1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

OH DEAR! Another verse we'd better pretend applied only to the church around the corner from Paul's house or prison. Otherwise, I'll have to change my says and my ways. Can't do that. Too uncomfortable. Too humbling. Too New Testament Christian--toooooo close to God. Can't have that. Denial. That's the answer. Denial. /satire.

18 verses related to tongues. Doesn't remotely sound OBSCURE, to me. Clearly, obscure is in the eye, or not, of the beholder.

The Pentecostal phenomenon of tongues seems to be the opposite of Peter's and significantly different from the phenomenon described by Paul.

Sounds like someone's mere argument

instead of someone's experience.

Modern era tongues and other Pentecostal experiences and practices have encompassed all the Scriptural examples. Ignorance of the literature doesn't hinder Holy Spirit where there are willing hearts seeking ALL God has to offer and willing to lay aside sufficient pride to experience it and put God first.

87 posted on 10/12/2006 3:14:50 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader

Yes,but it also says that he that speaks in a tongue should pray for interpration. The authentic gift will always have someone or others with the ability to interpret.
= = =

Mostly agree.

However, somtimes an earnest authentic person will utter such because of lack of teaching or not discerning or knowing that an interpreter is not present etc. It's authentic in the sense that the person is authentically feeling an input from Holy Spirit. And, usually, Holy Spirit is quite happy to bless said individual in said context with the interpretation.

But perhaps the person has gotten mind-locked into thinking that they can only speak but not interpret and even when Holy Spirit has the interpretation ready for them and they could hear in The Spirit and then share it in English--they don't realize that and remain silent.

Such cases can be authentic but out of order.


88 posted on 10/12/2006 3:17:42 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader
Your quotes are from Paul in Titus 3 and are out of context.

NO they are not! You seem to be forgetting the original intent of your response which was, "Those who promote docritinal divisions and diviseness Paul called immature Christians..."

Heretics promote doctrinal divisions. Schismatics promote divisiveness.

89 posted on 10/12/2006 3:18:05 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: FJ290

Huh? How do you rationalize that statement in light of St. Paul saying this:

And God indeed hath set SOME IN THE CHURCH; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
= = = = =

Ahhhhh . . . justifying NONE because of NOT ALL???

Curious logic.

Way tooo many? Based on God's standards and preferences or someone else's?

St Paul said he would that ALL spoke in tongues. Guess some would still rather fight and argue with plain Scripture.


90 posted on 10/12/2006 3:19:47 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: DarthVader

Thanks tons for your kind words.

And particularly for your example of a teachable spirit.

Obviously, God can much more readily have HIS way with you and your life. Praise God.


91 posted on 10/12/2006 3:21:17 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
Ahhhhh . . . justifying NONE because of NOT ALL???

What I justify is it being done according to Scripture. I have not seen ONE example of that being done today.Way tooo many? Based on God's standards and preferences or someone else's?

Is it God's standards when they are doing that or yours? I don't exactly call writhing around on the floor making strange noises "God's standards."

St Paul said he would that ALL spoke in tongues. Guess some would still rather fight and argue with plain Scripture.

He didn't say that, he said "I thank my God I speak with all your tongues.

But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue."

92 posted on 10/12/2006 3:34:33 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Quix

"If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad?"

Another thing for you to consider when you claim that St. Paul wanted ALL to speak in tongues!


93 posted on 10/12/2006 3:36:36 PM PDT by FJ290
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To: Quix

Uh, wow ......... what a post!


94 posted on 10/12/2006 3:55:08 PM PDT by proud_2_B_texasgal (Blood-bought, born again, spirit-filled ..........................)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
When dealing with those miracles the big guns of intellectualism and rationalism begin blasting away, claiming that belief in these miracles is unnecessary, that "the best scholarship" has disproved them, that the Bible was adopted by redactors from ancient pagan myths, etc. I've heard that in Eastern Orthodoxy Adam and Eve are regarded as saints, yet there is certainly never much of an attempt to publicize this or to encourage a cultus to them. For some reason everything that is important to Fundamentalist Protesants is threatening to Catholics and Orthodox, despite the fact that these people/events are supposed to be the common heritage of all chr*stians.

Now this is a new idea to me. Care to explain? I am not aware of Catholic arguments against Old Testament/Hebrew scriptures.

95 posted on 10/12/2006 3:57:19 PM PDT by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

As I kept reading, I saw what you are talking about. I think that other posters here are discussing it in far more detail than I could.


96 posted on 10/12/2006 4:06:09 PM PDT by technochick99 ( Firearm of choice: Sig Sauer....)
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To: FJ290
He didn't say that, he said "I thank my God I speak with all your tongues.

LOL. I didn't realize rewriting Scripture to THAT extent was practiced on this thread. That St Paul did NOT say. That's a VERY new distortion, on me.

St Paul DID SAY THIS:

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that you all spake with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speakes with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

That's plain Bible. As a shrink, I can understand folks not believing and practicing what the Bible says in that verse. As a Christian, I can't. I don't have a rubber Bible. Sorry for those who do.

97 posted on 10/12/2006 4:09:23 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: FJ290
Next time your co-religionists are attacking "intelligent design"(a form of Theistic evolution which claims that G-d's activity is scientifically observable) on the grounds that G-d doesn't "interfere" with the universe He created, I hope you will rebuke them.

I have challenged them on it. Whether they listen to me or not is up to them, LOL!

I'll never understand why any Catholic who believes that G-d became man would object to G-d creating the world by "interfering" in it.

I used to be Catholic, you know.

I don't recall you ever telling me that and if you did I apologize for forgetting. Sorry you left the faith and I will pray that one day you will return. You will always be welcomed back!

Thank you for the kind words, but I doubt I would be welcomed back. Besides, where could I go and not hear a bunch of liberal blather? Down here in the Bible Belt the Catholic Church isn't conservative at all--not by our standards.

98 posted on 10/12/2006 4:14:49 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vesamachta bechaggeykha vehayyita 'akh sameach.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Besides, where could I go and not hear a bunch of liberal blather?

A traditional chapel. ;-)

99 posted on 10/12/2006 4:20:50 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: FJ290
What I justify is it being done according to Scripture.

= = = =

I see little to no evidence of that.

Seems to me, if that were as true as it's made out to be, the following would be applauded and encouraged:

1 Corinthians 14:5

I would that you all spake with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speakes with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

THAT'S according to Scripture.

All manner of things are done in the name of Christianity as well as in the name of Pentecostalism etc. Nothing new about that. Nothing uniquely Pentecostal about that. Some of the most destructive-to-faith places one can find are various congregations of all stripes--sometimes particularly the NONPentecostal stripes.

That doesn't make all of them nonBiblical or nonChristian.

I've seen writhing on the floor that seemed hokey and some that seemed like Holy Spirit was doing a deep searching cleansing work in the individual(s) involved and I praised God for it. Didn't bother me that they were writing around on the floor. Peter was accused of being drunk.

It seems clear which perspective on this thread would have accused Peter of being drunk.

Seems clear what God would have thought of such an accusation, too.

100 posted on 10/12/2006 4:21:01 PM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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