Posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:32 AM PDT by Buggman
I do a lot of research and study on the sabbath Friday night so I would appreciate a posting. I won't have much chance of responding after tonight though...we're leaving for tabernacles Wednesday. I might have a little time on atonement, but computer time will be at a premium with feast prep and all.
b'shem Yah'shua Please do it now to allow for a time of reflection as we approach the Holiest Day.
Please post it as I am still learning and would appreciate the commentary from my other FRiends.
Please show the scripture that called for mankind to observe a sabbath before Moses gave it to the Israelites.
"The Day of the Lord" is not the same as "The Lord's Day". The Day of the Lord is concerning judgment and will be no sabbath, just the opposite.
I think that most would appreciate an early posting...judging from the previous comments. I would agree...and in addition, want to thank you for all your efforts. I always learn from you and look forward to your postings.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Why is the Sabbath such a problem for you? The only reason to have a new Sabbath is if you wish to worship a new god.
The second reference is Mosaic law and the Israelites were under the Law, which Christians are not.
The sabbath "is not a problem for me" as as a Christian I worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Lord's Day. I also worship God on Monday and Tuesday and I also worship God on Wednesday. I also worship God on Thursday, on Friday and on Saturday. Where two or three are gathered together in His name is also worship and so sometimes I'm worshipping several times a day. Not being under the Law, I really don't think about it.
As for Sunday, the Lord's day, that is a public worship and more of a testimonial to our faith than worship. That's why unbelievers go to church-- to be seen. However, it is also an appearing before the Lord, and good to do.
I don't know how you jump from our posts here to the conclusion I want to worship "another god".
This is really getting tiring. Everyone with any sense about them realizes that there has been a change of the law from the old covenant to the new covenant. Unless you insist on sacrificing animals and taking you medical conditions to a Levite and following all the old covenant ceremonial laws without any changes, then suggesting that those of use who see a change of the sabbath from the last day of the week to the first are "worshipping a new god" is just plain silly.
Certain portions of the law were a "shadow" of the finished work of Christ (Heb. 10:1). You do not need to worship in the shadows when the "Light of the World" has made His appearance.
The fact of the matter is that the seventh day under the old covenant was a sabbath day. But Jesus Christ, being the Lord the Sabbath, had the prerogative to change the day of the sabbath from the last day to the first day.
Those of us you are Christian sabbatarians believe He did precisely that, by the examples of His resurrection on the first day, His pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the first day, and the example of Paul and others in the church who worshipped on the first day. {For old covenant sabbatarians, the painful fact remains that nowhere in the NT do we find the Jewish/gentile church worshipping on the last day sabbath of the Jews.)
So let's at least be honest and admit this has nothing to do with worshipping other gods, unless you really do intend to circumcise your children and get a rabbi's OK to cut your hair.
Wait, all I see in that passage are Jewish-oriented time indicators stating that the Lord's holy worship will be eternal, from week to week and month to month.
It says nothing about celebrating the peculiar old covenant forms from week to week and month to month.
You're reading far more into the passage then what is there. It's called eisegesis.
Which is precisely why one should keep the 4th Commandment.
Never was it commanded for man to observe a sabbath before Moses.
There was no command not to murder prior to Cain and Able either, yet it was wrong, no? In fact, no laws were mentioned prior to Exodus, yet this verse remains:
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
In fact, God would prefer man to be more like Abraham and do God's will out of love, not fear.
Peronally, I believe this is the point of it all. I could not agree with you more.
The second reference is Mosaic law and the Israelites were under the Law, which Christians are not.
This statement leads me to believe you don't read any of the postings other than TopCat54's.
The sabbath "is not a problem for me" as as a Christian I worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Lord's Day. I also worship God on Monday and Tuesday and I also worship God on Wednesday. I also worship God on Thursday, on Friday and on Saturday. Where two or three are gathered together in His name is also worship and so sometimes I'm worshipping several times a day. Not being under the Law, I really don't think about it.
This is the disconnect in a nutshell. The Christian God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Elijah, Daniel, Jesus, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, etc. The Bible declares only ONE day in 7 to be Holy.
I don't know how you jump from our posts here to the conclusion I want to worship "another god".
I accused you of nothing. I simply stated fact. From Genesis to Revelation, there is only 1 Day to be kept (weekly) in honor of the True God of Creation. Of course, worshipping God 24X7 is righteous and just, but to purposely break a Commandment, and to teach others to do so, is incredibly dangerous, IMO.
Do you worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The fact of the matter is that the seventh day under the old covenant was a sabbath day. But Jesus Christ, being the Lord the Sabbath, had the prerogative to change the day of the sabbath from the last day to the first day.
Well, yes, and no. Jesus, being the author of the Law, could very well have changed it. However, HE NEVER DID! In fact, as I have already shown you, had he or any of the apostles said any of the nonesense that you are, they would have been stoned as heretics using the standards I showed you in Deuteronomy. The Pharisees were trying to get Jesus to speak against the Law so they could kill Him. He didn't do it. Get over it.
The Bible does not say that Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week. The Bible says that the tomb was discovered early on the first day of the week.
The only Christians who can honestly worship on the first day are the Catholics who believe that their Church has the power to change times and law.
Bigoted nonetheless.
As Jesus said, "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'"
This is supposed to resonate with those whom believe a human who possesses or possessed deity is a fraudulent concept?
The good news is that any Jew can have his eyes opened and his ears unstopped and recognize Jesus Christ as the Great Prophet and King of Israel and Ruler of the nations.
Better news is that since their is no need for eyes to be opened and ears to be unplugged there's no need to heed advice from the haughty.
So, tell us all plainly, do you sacrifice animals in your worship before the Lord, or do you encourage Jewish believer to sacrifice animals before the Lord?
Do you bring your grain offering to the local priest (Lev. 2:1)?
Do you bring your tresspass offering to the local priest (Lev. 5:6)?
Do you avoid temple worship when you have a "discharge" (Lev. 15:2)?
Do you get your tonsorial fashions approved by a priest or rabbi?
Do you have your sons circumcised by a rabbi?
Do your women bring a purification offering to the priest after bearing a child (Lev. 12:6)?
Do you bring your skin ailments to the priest for adjudication (Lev. 13:4)?
Do you bring cases of adultery to a preist to be tried by "bitter water" (Num. 5:19)?
Now, wht were you saying about "breaking the commandments"?
Oh, so it's OK to be selective? Double standard. Hypocricy come to mind.
Well, yes, and no. Jesus, being the author of the Law, could very well have changed it. However, HE NEVER DID!
That's your theory.
The NT evidence seems clear to most Christians that He did.
Well I'd just assumeed you thought they must be if they're not privy to all the enlightenment you have about all of their own traditions. Sorry, I should have just assumed they are blinded and deaf as topcat believes. That sounds better.
"There is none so blind as those who will not see."
"And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?' [Jesus] answered and said to them, 'Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.' "
How many time you going to tell me I'm blind and deaf?
I get it. Now demonstrate some of that Christian love if you're capable. From what I read in your posts you're stuggling with it.
strugglin
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Amen. God is not capricious. The sabbath day was changed from the end of the week to the beginning of the week for a very good reason. A new heart; a new covenant; a new life; a new time.
Part of this blindness is our fault; centuries of persecution have a way of making a person reject another's truth-claim out of hand.
I don't believe this blind-spot means the Jews are always wrong regarding their interpretation of the Tanakh, and I do in fact believe that the rabbis have uncovered many truths that we've overlooked. That's why I like to read them. But tell me, if the Jewish people are pure and have an unblemished record in understanding their own Scriptures, why was Isaiah 53 universally attributed by the rabbis to the Messiah until the Middle Ages, when suddenly they changed the interpretation to make it less Christian? (And if you don't believe me on that one, go do some homework and see if you can disprove that from a primary source.)
Both sides are guilty of missing the point, more often than not. Both sides have spent centuries defining themselves by what the other is not rather than what is written in Scripture. Both sides have been guilty of annuling the Word of God by their human traditions. And in case you hadn't noticed, I go after my Christian brothers far more often than I do my Jewish ones--because I believe in cleaning one's own house up before condemning another's.
With all respect, I think the real thing which bothers you is that you personally abandoned Yeshua for the teachings of the rabbis, and it makes you uncomfortable to see Him in the Torah and the oldest traditions of the Jewish people.
Your argument by outrage rings hollow, because there is no substance to it. If there is something specific which I have written that is incorrect--for example, if you thought me incorrect that the Talmud predicts the coming of the Messiah on Rosh Hashanah--then you are welcome to point that out and present your counter-argument and evidence. But simply saying that I'm wrong because you don't personally like my conclusions or going the, "How dare you say the Jews are wrong about anything!" route proves nothing and does not further the discussion in any way.
And finally, you're playing the hypocrite. You run around calling Christianity a Mithraic cult, but get all offended if someone offers the least criticism of modern Judaism. Don't dish out what you can't take.
I like you, Invinc, I really do. I consider you a brother, though I know you don't feel the same about me. And I've appreciated your jumping in on my side of a number of threads. And I also appreciate your sensitivity on Jewish issues--God knows that the Jews historically have enough reasons to be suspcious of Christians. But getting offended at someone who is showing why Jews who happen to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah should stay Jews and why the Gentiles should rejoice in the Torah instead of despising it is just plain silly, and amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face.
L'shanah tova tikatevu.
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