BIRTH OF MARY, September 8th

Once you understood the *authority* of the Magisterium and the Tradition, then your objections above fall apart.

In my view, your Magisterium has no 'authority'...

It was Origen, one of your first Magisterium who determined that the bible could not be taken literally...Most of your church Fathers before Origen were pretty content with Sola Scripture...Origen took the 'authority' of the bible and gave it to himself...

So when Origen read that there will be a millennial reign of Christ on earth, he says, oh no, no, no...We're not going to believe that...

And like I said, Paul already warned me about the 'Tradition'...I'll stick with Paul's tradition...

"In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures." (2 Peter 3:16)

Respectfully asked...How is one distorting scripture by praying to God the Father? Where did Paul reference asking the deceased for intercession with Christ who speaks on our behalf to the Father?

Please know that I believe that Mary is the most Blessed Woman ever, she had the high honor of being Jesus' mother, how much better could it get? I for one do not consider Mary a "accidental tourist". God chose her for His purpose and she was willing, I don't have any disagreement...

That being said and I know i'll be called a Bible banger but I just can't get past the way Christ told us to pray...A quite simple prayer that is very nuancely layered to our Father in Heaven as He taught...If it was good enough for Christ it's 8 trillion times good for me.

I am not judging anyone who chooses to ask for prayers thru Mary, I simply choose to pray to the Father...like someone else said before I've got enough sin and self examination to do on my own that I refuse to judge others...

Peace and blessings to you from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

I suppose a linguist would classify this as the language of vassals: people who are vividly conscious of their position in a network of personal loyalties in the family (richly entended), in society, and in the court of Heaven.

As Americans, we are very unused-to, and uncomfortable with, courtly language; we certainly lack a robust sense of intricate interconnectedness and interdependence within the Communion of Saints, the Body of Christ.

In every case --- looking beyond the florid fervorino language, which is foreign to our 21st century style of expression --- when we are addressing anybody other than God, we are asking for intercessory prayer. As the Catholic Liturgy says:

And I ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin,
All the angels and saints,
And you, my brothers and sisters,
To pray to the Lord our God for me.

And as the Orthodox Liturgy puts it:

Through the prayers of the Theotokos (Mother of God),
O Savior, save us.

Since Protestants don't believe in intercessory prayer, wouldn't it have made MUCH more sense for the following exchange to have occurred?

MARY: They've run out of wine.

JESUS: That's too bad. Unfortunately, the bride and groom didn't think it was important enough to come and tell me themselves. Instead, they insult Me by involving someone like you.

MARY: But --

JESUS: -- Gee, look at the time. I gotta run.

Respectfully asked...Who asked Mary for intercessory prayer at the wedding of Cana? Did not Mary understand by her own observation of the wine running out? I don't deny she asked her Son to do something she knew He could do but I don't see any request for intercession or am I missing something?

Here is John 2:

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."

4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[a]

7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

"But nowhere in the Bible is the Canon of Scripture described in detail! Hmmmmmmmm. By whose Authority is your Bible assembled? Or can you cite me Scripture and verse of the books of the Canon?"

Respectfully stated: I don't think that's part of the point...Canon was put together by the Church, the Body of Christ, as the Holy Spirit inspired the writers and those who decided on the canon over a period of hundreds of years, this is historical and accepted fact. That being said which is greater the people that formed the canon or the scriptures themselves? Anyhew...

Regardless of the debate of canon formation the fact of the matter is this. Christ explictly instructs us how to pray in Matthew 5. It would seem that tradition and scripture should fully agree in this respect, no?

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

That, my friends in Christ, is the most beautiful and powerful prayer any of us can ever utter. I'm not saying you can't ask for prayers of others, I'm just pointing out what Christ said...

Blessings in Christ to all of you!

Paul is asking, urging, praying that we intercede for each other. Do you think that the saints in heaven no longer do this? Is it that they don't love us anymore? Or that they can no longer talk to God?

Respectfully asked...We don't fully 100% know do we? In Revelation it shows that the saints in Heaven were constantly worshipping God along with the angels...the only references to the prayers of saints were these:

Rev 5:

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

and Rev 8:

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Respectfully, neither of these lend much support to the concept of the saints in Heaven interceding to Christ with the prayers of those still alive on earth. In Rev 5 only the 24 elders (who are unnamed) and the four creatures had the prayers of the saints...Rev 8 show the angels as presenting the prayers of the saints...

I'm not judging anyone, just pointing out what scripture shows us...

Again, blessings to you in Christ!

"Paul is asking, urging, praying that we intercede for each other. Do you think that the saints in heaven no longer do this? Is it that they don't love us anymore? Or that they can no longer talk to God?"

Who is Paul speaking to in that verse? I believe he's speaking to people who are alive and can still make the choice to accept Jesus as their Savior. When a person dies the "rules change". One rule that changes is that humans no longer can change their opinion about Jesus, GAME OVER. Of course our relatives who've passed away still love us but where are we instructed to communicate with the dead?

The discussion is about the Birth of Mary, not about sola scriptura. Please take that discussion to the sola scritura thread.

The topic of sola scriptura was introduced to the thread by yet another Catholic back in post #15, even before I got here. The discussion wasn't about bashing Protestants either, but that didn't stop this thread from going that direction way back in post #s 5, 7, 9, and 12 - and one of those posts was yours.

I can't understand how you can complaint about this thread getting "off topic". A close look shows that attacking Protestants has been "on topic" since the very beginning of the thread.

The first to plead his case seems right,
Until another comes and examines him.
- Proverbs 18:17

"When a person dies [they] no longer can change their opinion about Jesus."

True.

"Of course our relatives who've passed away still love us but where are we instructed to communicate with the dead? "

That's the point. (a) They still love us and (b) They still pray.

Add to that (c) They are still members of the Body of Christ. As we are, too.

What a tremendous doctrine! Think for a moment of what that means. Has Christ's Body been torn apart, with the "dead" parts no longer having any lively connection with the "living" ones? Of course not. We are members of the living Christ, not a part-living-and-part-dead Christ. The parts of the Body are ALWAYS in vital interaction: helping each other, supporting each other, those in heaven and on earth still united under Christ, our Head.

Do you really think that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are the deadest of the dead (1 Corinthians 5:18)? Surely not. "We, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another" (Romans 12:5) and "Let there be no division in the Body, but may the members have the same care for one another (1 Corinthians 12:25.)

Can you really think this is the same thing as conjuring a corpse, or communicating with the "dead"? We are not members of a dead Body, but of the living Christ. That's what "The communion of Saints" means.

It's interesting that the antipathy seen in some Protestants (I'm not saying "you") was not part of the early Reformation. For instance in Luther's Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary. Not an entirely bad fellow, that Luther! ;^)

PM--

I would agree that the Our Father is the perfect prayer given to us literally by Our Lord Himself. However, this part is a problem:

>>>Regardless of the debate of canon formation the fact of the matter is this. Christ explictly instructs us how to pray in Matthew 5. It would seem that tradition and scripture should fully agree in this respect, no?<<<

The fact is, Protestants wish to follow Catholic Tradition (note capital T) with regard to the food-flinging debates which finally settled on a Canon (although, some books later disappeared in the Reformation as they mentioned prayes for the dead as in Maccabees). However, once the Canon was established, Protestants eventually threw over Tradition and made the interpretation of Scripture a private affair. THAT is my point.

The attack on the priesthood was paramount. Note that Luther was very faithful to Marian devotion. That "thorn" came later into Protestant sensibilities. The Catholic Church stands on Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. That 3-legged stool is Christ's design. WE did not design the Church; HE did. That is what all these discussions eventually devolve into and that is where the opinions gradually gravitate pro or contra. The Early Church Fathers are a great revelation of how many ideas and movements were put down in order to establish the True faith handed on to the Apostles by Christ.

Peace of Christ by upon you!

F

The Catholic Church stands on Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. That 3-legged stool is Christ's design.

Thank you for your answer, I appreaciate your candor and respectful tone. I do have a follow up question:

How does the RCC overcome the fact that some Tradition is not in any form explictly or implictly in Scripture. For instance in Maccabbees there is one singular reference to praying for those who wore a necklace they should not have and died. I'll concede that is praying for the dead, but how is that turned into the concept of purgatory--I don't recall, does the story continue that the dead were made to suffer before attaining eternal life? The rest of the NT has some refernces to refinging by fire, but those references ( to my recollection at this moment) are not in the context of mans salvation or the punishment due for the venial sins. Which leads me to the next itme up for bid...What is the RCC's perspective of the Scripture that says I will blot out their iniquities and remember them no more? Allow me to provide an example.

I get caught speeding. I go to court and am found not guilty for whatever reason and thus the court no longer determines I need to pay any penalty and have no guilt associated with this event. They have forgiven and forgotten and I go on with no "pennance" or guilt offering to provide to the court for this judgement, I don't need to do community service, pay a fine - in fact all i need to do is trust that I have been found not guilty by the judge.

Scripture (Jeremiah 31:34) tells us that God, for the sake of the Lamb's sacrifice will blot out the iniquities and remember them no more. How can one be punished for something that is blotted out (forgiven) and not remembered? Don't get me wrong, we more than deserve eternal punishment for our sins, howerver God tells us we will be spared this punishment as He has accepted Christ's atonging Sacrifice, once for all (for those who of course believe and accept this--i'm not a once saved always saved or everyone's saved Lutheran).

I look forward to your answer...blessings in Christ!

How does the RCC overcome the fact that some Tradition is not in any form explictly or implictly in Scripture.

What is there to overcome about that? Apparently you are so steeped in "Sola Scripture", that you cannot even grasp the concept that the Tradition is a *distinct* authority; it does not depend upon Scripture for its authority. Likewise, the Magesterium is a distinct authority. It does not depend upon Scripture for its authority.

-A8

Well, if I want to hear music by the Beatles, or John Coltrane, I can't exactly ask them to come round and play it themselves, can I? But thanks to Ben Franklin, Alexander Graham Bell and Crass Commercialism, I hear them anytime my heart desires.
Likewise, our soldiers don't have to wait for George Bush, our Commander-in-Chief to come around and personally hand out the orders. That what I mean by conduits, by those who carry out G_d's wishes. Of course He can do it Himself, but isn't He doing it through those willing to serve Him just as easily? Isn't the intervention of saints akin to "Look, would you please tell Mom/the boss/my teacher Ms. Crabtree/that nice policeman writing the ticket that..." "Sure, for He's standing right there."
Thank you for the St. Anthony Prayer, believe you me, in my house he is one busy saint!

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