Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins
Sadly, preterists actually deal with this contradiction by saying that Jesus has already returned (secretly/symbolically, of course.) Unable to deal with this, semi-preterists back off of the return of Christ. However, as you point out it presents them with a dilemma. Jesus said all of these things will be fulfilled. If they insist on it mean that 33AD generation, then that mean Jesus has to have returned.
Does this look like heaven? (since they don't believe in a millennial reign.)
"Jerusalem will be trodden under foot of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
It strikes me that that is still ongoing.
Therefore, THIS generation that sees ALL these things is based on Jesus speaking of that future era. He refers to the generation of the era about which he IS SPEAKING. And it's appropriate to say "THIS."
Looks pretty obvious to me, xzins.
You understand the context !b'shem Yah'shua
Unless we are terrible readers, Jesus does seem to be discussing the FUTURE in the Olivet Discourse.
Apparently, this scares the bejeebers out of semi-preterists, since they aren't willing to admit that FUTURE is the topic.
Luke 21 has already happened. The armies of Rome surrounded Jeruslem and destroyed the temple just as Jesus predicted. That is not in doubt by most Bible scholars.
"Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Jesus said, 'I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.' " (Mark 14:61,62; cf. Matt. 26:64)
Philip Mauro remarks whether these signs are to be taken as literal or figurative:
In the first place, seeing we are debarred by the Lord's plain teaching from taking these commotions to be physical signs, visible to the eye, preceding and heralding His coming, or as having any special connection with that event, it would seem almost imperative that we give the words a figurative meaning. For it is not conceivable that, in speaking of this long age which was to be so full of important happenings, Christ would single out for mention nothing but a few isolated phenomena of nature in the physical heavens. This consideration practically compels us to find a meaning for the words which would make them descriptive of some distinguishing characteristic of the age, or at least of the latter part of it.I.e., it's not meant to be taken "literally".When we turn to Luke's account we find strong confirmation of this view. This confirmation appears in two particulars, first in the manner in which the reference to the sun, moon and stars is introduced; and second in the fact that it is directly coupled with certain general characteristics of the age, such as we should expect in a brief utterance of this kind. For Luke gives it thus (we put the salient part in italics):
For there shall be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken (#Lu 21:23-26).
According to this account the Lord does not break off His predictions abruptly at the capture and destruction of Jerusalem, but follows the Jews in their dispersion unto all nations, and also foretells the treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Thus we are carried into the period which follows after the tribulation of those days, and are informed that that period is divinely designated the times of the Gentiles. {1} And now immediately follows (in Luke's account) the passage we are examining, And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But here we have also the further statement, and on the earth distress of nations with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them, etc. From these words it is clear that the Lord is giving (which, as we have pointed out, is what we should expect) some very broad and general characteristics of our age, with an eye especially upon the closing part thereof. Moreover, in speaking of the unsettled state of the nations He uses a familiar figurative expression, namely, the sea and the waves roaring. This figure represents the turbulence of the peoples of the earth (see #Re 17:15, Isa 8:7), just as the sun, moon and stars represent rulership, governments, and authorities. Thus we find good reason for concluding that the Lord is here speaking figuratively of unusual happenings in the political firmament, that is to say, in the sphere of governments, or what Paul calls the higher powers (#Ro 13:1).
In Isaiah 13:7-10 (#Isa 13:7-10) we have an example of the use of this figure. It occurs in connection with a description of the day of the Lord. We quote verse 10: For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Taking these words in connection with Genesis 1:16-18, (#Ge 1:16-18) and with Joseph's dream about the sun, moon and stars (which his father and brethren had no need of one to interpret for them, (#Ge 37:9,10), and in connection also with (#Eze 32:7 Joe 2:31, 3:15 Re 12:1,) we get the idea that the sun stands for authority on earth in the broadest sense, and the moon for lesser authority, and the stars for prominent persons in the sphere of government.
Not is you take the immediate context in an unnatural way and ignore the rest of the Bible to boot.
It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the immense significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations. The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfilment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfilments in the future. The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfilments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.All I can say is Amen.Yet, in the face of all this, we have today a widely held scheme of prophetic interpretation, which has for its very cornerstone the idea that, when God's time to remember His promised mercies to Israel shall at last have come, He will gather them into their ancient land again, only to pour upon them calamities and distresses far exceeding even the horrors which attended the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. This is, we are convinced, an error of such magnitude as to derange the whole program of unfulfilled prophecy. (The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation )
Can't show you anyone who "says" it. I can show ya somebody who certainly "infers" it.
Do the Apaches own their land by "hereditary right?"
Apaches lived in Texas, Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico through their racial lineage. Many say they still own the land that was taken from them
I would like to remind you again of the following:
Although some anti-zionists may sincerely believe they are not motivated by hatred of Jews, the consequences of anti-zionism and anti-semitism for the Jewish people are the same.
Would you prefer all 6 million Israeli Jews take their chances again in the diaspora? Do you not remember why it was granted for Jews to once again have a homeland? The more you type the more you reveal what's in your heart. Here's to hoping you still have one.
"The future" is a relative term. AD70 was certainly in the future for Jesus and his listeners. Sinnc He speaks of "this generation", the future becomes time limited. That should be pretty easy to distinguish.
"Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 'These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.' So they asked Him, saying, 'Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?' " (Luke 21:5-7)
"But Jesus wished to deceive them and so He spoke about things that would come upon 'this generation', and He used phrases such as 'But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake,' but He was not really speaking about His apostles and other Jewish disciples who believed on His name in the 1st century, those who would undergo great persecution at the hands of the apostate Jews and the Romans. No, for lo we now know He was speaking about things far in the future much removed from that generation. These things could not 'literally' take place without satellites and television and mass communication. We now know that the Jewish temple must be rebuilt and the Roman empire raised from the dead so that these things can come to pass even though they had been fulfilled once long ago, to that generation. We need to gather Israel once again into her ancient lands so that two-thirds of them can be slaughtered for no apparent reason. And, lo, we have learned this from reading Scofield's Notes." (2 Hesitations 2:13-16)
Thanks for the notations, topcat. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, as the Holy Spirit inspired the Word to be written.
Why would Jesus put his universal act of revealing himself as King of the Universe out of the sight of some?
Looks to me you can rest assured, everyone will see the Son of Man, at his Revelation.
Not is you take the immediate context in an unnatural way and ignore the rest of the Bible to boot.
Exactly.
Your side perpetually underestimates the events of 70AD.
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NOT AT ALL. 0.00000000000000000000%
It's just that when one lines up the most vivid, horrid descriptions of all those historical events,
THEY DON'T BEGIN TO MATCH THE SCRIPTURAL END TIMES PROPHECIES.
Just not a match. Not even the beginnings of a match.
And obviously so.
It boggles our minds that ANYone could see it otherwise.
Great example.
Thanks.
Excellent points. Thanks.
More excellent points.
True enough, and rest assured that the high priest and all of apostate Israel saw Jesus "coming in clouds" when He vanquished Jerusalem and destroyed the temple by the hand of the armies of Rome just as He prophesied.
"Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Wail, 'Woe to the day!' 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles." (Eze. 30:2,3)
Why would Jesus put his universal act of revealing himself as King of the Universe out of the sight of some?
Not all revelations are created euqal. There are temporal revelations or "appearings" against nations such as against Babylon and Egypt in the OT. This was a temporal revelation aginst apostate Israel. She was judged for killing the prophets and the "son of the landowner" (Matt. 21:33ff).
Don't confuse these temporal appearings with the Second Coming which is yet future and about which there will be no confusion on anyone's part.
Good point.
It's not the least bit of a problem to realize that Edersheim is merely thoroughly wrong--regardless of his Jewishness, his scholarship, biases, whatever--he's simply thoroughly wrong.
No wonder you are confused, having to jump back and forth and back in time to make sense of your eschatological system.
= = = = = =
NOT AT ALL. We merely follow the plain words of Scripture.
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