Posted on 08/11/2006 6:56:12 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Hagee in hot seat after Falwell furor drags him into possible Israeli dirty tricks game
Neither San Antonio televangelist John Hagee nor the Rev. Jerry Falwell has expressed a belief in a "dual covenant theology" as reported Wednesday in the Jerusalem Post, Hagee and a local rabbi said Thursday.
"Dual covenant theology" refers to a belief that Jews can be saved without believing in Jesus Christ — as Christians do — because of God's covenant with the ancient Israelites.
Hagee has said for many years that he believes that God's "new covenant" with Christianity does not "replace" his covenant with the Israelites, which also applies to today's Jews.
Many Christians have interpreted that to mean he believes Jews can be saved without believing in Jesus and have criticized Hagee for it, but he has not said that himself.
A steadfast supporter of Israel since 1981 on biblical grounds, Hagee has maintained a policy of not proselytizing Jews.
Hagee was traveling Thursday and was not available for comment. But in a letter to the Post, which his secretary provided to the San Antonio Express-News, he reiterated his non-proselytizing policy toward Jews, adding that if Jews inquire about the Christian faith, "we give them a full scriptural presentation of redemption as presented in scripture. Regardless of the response from the Jewish person, we remain friends in support of the State of Israel as required by scripture."
Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg of Congregation Rodfei Sholom, a close friend of Hagee's for more than 25 years, told the Express-News on Thursday that the inaccuracy arose when he was interviewed about the Feb. 7 founding of a new Christian organization to lobby for the State of Israel with federal officials. It's called Christians United For Israel.
About 300 U.S. evangelical leaders attended a closed Feb. 7 meeting at Hagee's Cornerstone Church to discuss the need for the organization.
Are you accusing Jesus of reductionism because that's the author of the words that I used. Either He's the Way, the Truth and the Life, or He isn't. Was He just fooling around when He said that you must be baptized and believe in Him to be saved, and if you don't, you're condemned?
I'll be perfectly frank with you and I won't apologize for it either. I don't buy into this universal salvation that is being promoted by some today. I'm a Roman Catholic, not a Unitarian.
Our "finitie minds" were told by God Himself when He became man the means for salvation as expressed in the verses I gave earlier from Jesus. As well, His Apostles, St. Peter and St. John said, "Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved."
False religions offer no hope of salvation; neither would I want to encourage them to stay in something that would result in the loss of eternal life with Jesus Christ.
I only ask that you consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus ... to him The Lord And Savior said, "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." It is in God's hands regarding baptism, etc. But there is only One Way, Truth, and Life, Jesus The Christ. No man cometh unto the Father but by Him.
I'm a Jew, though glad to make the point. America could not have been founded without Christianity.
How do you decide who merits your attentions?
Yes I do believe the thief on the cross story, but there's a reason that he was going to be with Jesus that day. He believed in Him as he called him Lord. "And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom."
How do we actually know that the thief was never baptized? The Scripture is silent on it. He may have been at one time before his execution or not. At the least, Baptism of blood would apply to him.
Did you answer my question to you? I don't believe you did, so I will hold off answering this one until such time you answer mine. Thanks!
I have not hit the abuse button, nor have I communicated anything to the Admins. I brought it to you, not them.
Apparently, offering me the benefit of the doubt isn't one of them.
Sorry, it was my intention to exclude you from those of which I speak of in my last post, since you clearly stated that was not your position, but I got sidetracked. Apologies.
All told, I have a hard time believing you'd take such issue with someone in the Moonbat Media restating a CRI report, and not with the CRI report on Hagee itself.
If CRI's purpose for their report is to bring down a fellow Christian then I would disagree with them also.
Does "Vanguard"'s reprinting of CRI's data automatically render everything contained within false and inaccurate?
No, but when they sprinkle in "boot-licking Zionist" here and a "heretical Zionist" there then they have created a bigoted piece of propaganda with CRI playing their dupe.
Better yet, start a whole new thread, beginning with your Biblical defense of Hagee's policy of (non-)evangelizing the Jews.
You must have missed the part where I stated I don't care about your views or Hagee's views on the subject. Though I disagree with Hagee, I will not restate it for the thousandth time just to hear myself or to boost my Christian superiority.
I suggest you write CRI a letter seeking a retraction of their findings based on the Vanguard reprint, and then post their reply to this thread.
You know, you are right. Why be upset at the media or moonbats for tearing down Christians when we have other good Christians to do it for them.
But I do think that I will be calling CRI tomorrow (it's a local call) and ask them what they think of their report being used to support the anti-zionist position.
>>"Hagee discourages Christians from sharing the Good News with unsaved Jews who, like everyone else, have need of the gospel if they are to spend eternity with God in heaven."<<
I'm not sure that I know Hagee well enough to be dogmatic about Hagee's theology on the subject of "Do Jews need to be saved?" It's very clear that Christ is the annointed One.. The Messiah of Israel.. As well as the Savior of the world...
I believe that the Gospel is to the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.. I also believe that there is no way to the Father except by Him... I've shared the gospel with many Jews, and if I have a choice, at any given moment, to share the Gospel with a Jew or a gentile.. I would choose to share it with the Jew...
Having said this... It is also clear that God is not done with Israel as a Nation.. This in no way changes the fact that Christ is Israel's one and only Messiah... We've been studying the book of Revelation recently and it's clear that many Jews will be saved during the Tribulation time... And that 12,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during that time and millions will be saved... Also, it's clear that the Temple will be rebuilt and offerings will be resumed, but these offering will look "back" to Calvary... Whereas, the previous offerings always looked "ahead" to Calvary...
I personally don't believe that those saved during the Tribulation make up part of the Church.. But, they are definitely "in Christ"... Just as the Old Testament saints are not part of the His Body...
I am open to discussion on these issues, however, I don't claim to be the depository of all knowledge and wisdom.. :-)
I'm just a sinner saved by God's grace. I also don't believe that Calvinism and Armenianism need to be "reconciled"... They are like two rails on a track.. And though they may pose a problem to us, they are no problem to God...
"Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World" is just as true as.. "Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavily laden, and I will give you rest.."
God Bless
I tell them "come and see."
Ok, you tell them come and see what?
Since you answered my question, as promised, I will now answer yours. I like to share the good news with all who are lost and without Jesus Christ. I also like to share with others the joy of being in the Catholic Church.
The Archdiocese of Philadelphia says that evangelization is:
1.Sharing the gift of faith that has been given to us
2. An essential mission of the Church
3. A basic duty of all the baptized: laity, religious and clergy
All of us have a duty to evangelize. Tell me please, who do you think warrants that attention?
I like your Archdiocese's statement! Applying it to the thread at hand, why would any Christian think the Jews don't warrant that attention?
Thanks Alex, although it's not the Archdiocese I belong to I thought others here might like to see it. There's some verses out of Scripture I think also mandates us to evangelize to the Jewish people.
In St. Matthew 10, Jesus told His Apostles to go the lost sheep of the house of Israel first. The Lord Jesus wants His people gathered unto Him.
"....how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?"
Gotta run! Taking my wife out for a late dinner and movie. Have a nice evening everyone!
All I can say about John Hagee is he is way off the chart when it comes to the modern Israeli state. He's off balanced with that he's got blinders on and can't see. I've prayed for him because of this.
Ah, we are both Catholic. My point was that in the absence of a desire to hear of Our Lord, too much talk of hellfire and damnation does more harm than good. Jesus told Peter and Andrew, IINM, to come and see. So many are turned off by shall we say, unsolicited witnessing. I prefer to tell and show what Christ has done in my life. If they wish to know what it's all about, it is my honor to tell them. Above all I remember that I do not convert, only God does that.
When it comes to my Jewish brothers and sisters, I especially remember that they are ultrasensitive about Christians trying to convert them without their approval. This may be theologically wrong, but it helps me to look at it as, when Jesus returns for the second coming, He will be arriving for the First Coming as far as they're concerned.
Bless you for your faith.
If I'm not mistaken, in Revelation, St. John mentioned that one of the signs of the end of days would be the Jewish faith being brought into our own.
I mentioned this already today, but I'm always reminded of my mother's words about the Jews being God's Chosen people, and therefore worthy of respect.
I'm curious as to whether you're a literalist when it comes to reading the bible... you present good, reasonable statements. For my own part, I can't believe that God would close the gates to the Jews from the time of Jesus' death onwards... He didn't condemn Thomas for not believing in Jesus' resurrection until Thomas could feel Jesus' wounds. Thomas just got a lecture about faith, and of course, we got to hearn about the value of believing without proof. I'm slow to do my own interpretation about scripture, but, well, my belief in God's mercy, even in His anger, is strong.
I try not to think too much about weighty theological questions because we'll find out the answers soon enough. Yes, I think Jesus' admonition to Thomas was a message to the Jews.
I used to feel kind of guilty because I don't beat people over the head with evangelization. Now I'm convinced that that sort of behavior is more about the witnessor than the witnessee, and I think it really makes our religion look ugly. People will gnaw off their own limbs to get away from it! I know I used to.
I love Jews - it's ingrained in me. And I know that they are hypersensitive about attempts to convert because it's been done by force so much in the past. So I leave it alone, unless they want to hear it. Let him who has ears hear.
I have NO problem with what J.H. teaches of Jewish tradition.I have not seen any reason to believe that
Christ's Covenant with his followers negated in any way
God's Covenant with the Jews. I am no fan of Replacement theology.the Jews are still God's chosen people.That they
were "not My people" for a while seems logically part of
Gods'plan to bring salvation to all. But Jerusalem is still
where Prophecy will be fulfilled.
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