Posted on 08/10/2006 6:22:46 PM PDT by Teófilo
Folks, I've been leafing through volume 11 of the Twentieth Century Encyclopedia of Catholicism which I purchased second hand. The title of this volume is What is the Trinity? and also contains a study on The Holy Spirit. Bernard Piault wrote What is the Trinity, and indeed it's a very rich study on this most central question in Christian Theism. At the beginning of its fifth chapter I found three tables detailing the different kinds of Trinitarian heresies and their refutations. I'm going to try to reproduce these tables below for your information. All those spaces correspond roughly to those in the original tables.
I. Total Rejection of the Trinity
|
Heresy |
Refutation |
||||
| Year | Of Judaizing Origin | Of Philosophical Origin | Inspired Writers | Final Authority | Christian Teachers |
| 50
100
150 200 |
Ebionites Cerinthus (96-100)
|
Simon Magus. Basilides.
Valentine
(Widespread Gnosticism) |
St. Paul St. John |
The Apostles' Creed |
St. Clement of Rome (96-100) St. Ignatius of Antioch (+107) St. Justin (150) St. Ireneaus |
II. Rejection of the Distinctions of Persons
|
Heresy |
Refutation |
|||
| Year | Adoptionism | Modalism | Teachers | Final Authority |
|
200
250
|
Theodotus the Currier Theodotus the Banker Artemon Paul of Samosata (The Word lives in the man Jesus as in a Temple. Hence, Jesus is not the Son of God) |
Praxeas Sabellius Noetus of Smyrna |
Tertullian (213-18) Hyppolytus of Rome (c. 230-40) |
The two Denises (265) The Three Councils of Antioch(263-8) |
III. Rejection of Equality of Persons
|
Heresy |
Refutation |
|||
| Year | About the Word | About the Holy Spirit | Teachers | Final Authority |
| 300
350
400
|
Arius Eusebius of Nicomedia Eusebius of Caesarea Anomeans Homoiousians Homoeans |
Pneumatomachians Macedonius
Marathon |
St. Alexander of Alexandria (320) St. Athanasius St. Hilary St. Athanasius St. Basil of Caesarea St. Gregory of Nyssa St. Gregory Nazianzen |
Nicea (325)
Alexandria (362)
2nd Council of Constantinople (381 |
Serious question:
Did Jesus Christ fulfull the passover?
1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
This verse implies that Christ was the real passover lamb.
If so, he would have had to fulfill the requirements of the passover lamb, right?
Exd 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Jesus Christ was without spot or blemish, meaning sinless right?
Jesus Christ was a male, right?
He was of the first year....something I know we don't agree on but that is another discussion....
And he was taken from the herd, not raised separately, right?
And we all agree that not a bone in him was broken, right?
It is extremely important to realize that if Jesus Christ was not human then he did not fulfill the passover requirements! Adam was a human that sinned and the only suitable sacrifice to buy back mankind was another human!
That is why John puts so much emphasis on ensuring that believers 'confess' (Homologeo--believe with the innermost being what one says) that Jesus came in the flesh. If one actually believes that Jesus was less than human or was 'true god and true man' then they cannot confess that Jesus came in the flesh.
Without being a man, a perfect man, Jesus could not redeem mankind from the fallen state.
Yeah, it is that important.
That is why he had to be tempted in all ways like we humans are.
(Remember, God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted!)
He overcame temptation because we couldn't. And still can't!
It is the works of Christ that allow us access to God.
Dear Eagle Eye, you forget that you also, made in God's image, are three in one, for you have a body, a soul, and a spirit, yet these three are one person, the complete you. Without any one of these three thou wouldst fail to be the one. So it is with the God who made us, He is three, and He is One, forever and ever, amen.
You [God] gave your good Spirit to instruct them.
You [God] did not withhold your manna from their mouths,
and you [God] gave them water for their thirst.Jesus said (John 6:51):
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
SOUL:
When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought joy to my soul (Psalm 94:19).
BODY:
O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water (Psalm 63:1).
SPIRIT:
Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.
Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
(Psalm 51:10-17)
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Point to Ponder:
Galatians 4:4-6
For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit;
and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
"Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword."
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
Isaiah 1:18-20
O Hallelujah! Glory!
Who said Jesus was "less than human?"
He is human, and more. It is possible to be both a brother and a savior.
What do you mean "can't?" We can and do. That's a fact.
I hate to be harsh, but you really aren't reading and responsing to what I wrote. I never said anything against Jesus being a brother and savior. He is both and that is easily supported by scripture.
"What do you mean "can't?" We can and do. That's a fact."
In referring to "confessing" that Jesus came in the flesh, there are to key words, 'confess' and 'in'.
Confess is "homologeo" meaning to say the same thing. Literally to say what you believe in the depths of your soul. Same word for confess Jesus as Lord in Romans 10:9,10. It goes beyond saying something with some sincerity.
The other, 'in' has a definition that mean 'in and totally in, no part out' as one being inside a circle drawn on the ground with no part outside the circle. It implies exclusion. In this case, being 'in the flesh' means being a human, totally human, not part human part god or totally human and totally god (however odd that is!)
So if one is saying that Jesus came in the flesh but really believe that he was God (who is not flesh or human) then there is no true confession.
Again, you don't respond to my points as much as bring in new points of your own...but I can deal with that!
Actually we are NOT made in God's image. We are created in God's image. Yes, there is a difference and if you strive for accuracy then you'll appreciate the differences.
We were originally three part beings (three being the number of completeness) as body, soul, and spirit just as you've tried to demonstrate.
Man was originally formed, made, and created. The body was formed, our life-spirit 'made' us living souls, and our spirit was created in God's image. After all, God is spirit and they the worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
Without the spiritual connection to God, there is on communing with Him.
When Adam sinned, he lost his spiritual connection with God and became a body and soul man. And until Pentecost, humans have been body and soul beings with a few exceptions. Yes, we've been incomplete!
Jesus Christ's life as a man, death as a sacrifice, resurrection, ascension and subesquent gift of holy spirit allowed man to again be body, soul, and spirit. Saved. Made whole.
On another point, and I know you won't like this but:
If you must continue to debate, you must debate the Witness of God:
For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit;
and these three are one.
1 John 5:7
Portions of this verse do not appear in th early manuscripts. The implication there is that they were inserted to support a particular theology. Go to any good concordance and look it up yourself. In the back they have sections that show the many places where man has blatantly inserted words into the KJV. Also, an interlinear text of the KJV and Stephens Greek text will show the oddities of translation.
Funny thing is that trinitarianism is much like evolution in that both rely on falsified documents to justify their positions.
It would be nearly impossible for a person that had never heard of trinity to see it in the Bible. Those that are most ardent in this persuasion are those who were indoctrinated in trinitarianism before learning how to read and research the Bible. Therefore their study is more aimed at supporting their ideas than it is searching for Truth.
Ah....the final gasps of failed debate.
Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation"
Does that make Joshua Jehova, Lord, or God?
What about Barabbas? His name means 'son of the father' or 'son of the master'.
Barabbas had a first name, too. Jesus.
So he was Jesus Barabbas.
Does that make him God because his name has some meanings?
I don't think so!
(Ouch!)
Interesting that we have Jesus, Son of the Father and Jesus son of the father...and they chose the counterfeit!
Seems that is still going on today.
Deut: 32: 36-41
36) For their rock is not as our Rock,
even our enemies themselves being judges.
37)For their Vine is of the Vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are grapes of gall,
their clusters are bitter!
38) YAHWEH will judge his people, and have compassion...
39) And he shall say, "Where are their gods?
Their 'Rock' in whom they trusted?
40) Those who ate the fat of their sacrifices?
and drank the wine of their Drink offering?
Oh, let them rise up and help you, and be your protection!
41)See now that I myself am 'HE',
and there are no other deities with me."
Zech 14: 1 & 9
1)Behold, the day of YAHWEH comes,
and your plunder shall be divided among you...
9)And YAHWEH shall be king over all the earth on that day,
and 'YAHWEH' shall be his one and only name.
Psalm 83:16-18
16) Fill their faces with shame so that they may seek your name, O YAHWEH.
17) Let them be confounded and troubled forever, and be put to shame, and perish,
18)so that men may know that you, whose name is 'YAHWEH' alone, are the most high over all the earth.
ISAIAH 43:10-12
10) "You all are my witnesses and my Servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe in me,
and understand that I am HE.
Before me no other god was formed,
and there will be no one after me!
11) I, yes I, am YAHWEH.
And apart from me there is no other saviour.
12) I have revealed and redeemed and proclaimed.
I did this, and not some other among you."
Isaiah 44:6-9
6) Thus says YAHWEH, the King of Israel,
and his redeemer, YAHWEH of hosts:
"I am the first, and I am the last,
and there is no deity beside me.
7) "And who is like me? Let him make the claim,
and declare and tell me of the things that have happened since I chose the ancient people,
and the things that are coming,
and what will come!
Let them predict them!
8) Fear not, neither be afraid:
for, have not I told you from that time, and have declared it?
9) You are my very witnesses.
Is there a deity beside me?
Indeed there is not.
I know no other Rock.
10) They that make a graven image are all vain men,
and their delectable things shall not profit;
for they are their own witnesses,
and they see not,
nor know,
else they would be ashamed.
ISAIAH 45:5-6
I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else,
there is no deity beside me.
I strengthened you, though you did not acknowledge me,
So that they may know,
from the rising of the sun,
and from the west,
that there is no one beside me.
I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else.
Isaiah 45:19-22
19)I have not spoken in secret,
in a dark place of the earth.
I did not say to the descendents of Jacob,
"You seek me in vain",
I, YAHWEH, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.
20) Assemble yourselves and come,
draw near together, you who have escaped from the Gentile Nations.
They who set up the wood of their graven image,
and pray to a god that cannot save,
have no knowledge.
21)Tell all, and bring them near.
Yes, let them take counsel together:
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, YAHWEH?
And there is no other deity beside me, a just god and a saviour.
There is no one beside me.
22) Look to me, and be saved,
all the ends of the earth.
For I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am YAHWEH, your god from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no god but me,
for there is no saviour beside me.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, else he might lie,
neither is God the Son of Man, else he might change his mind.
Has he said, and shall not do?
or has he spoken, and shall not make it so?
And besides all the scripture that says God is ONE, where in the OT, do you find any indication that the messiah would actually BE GOD? The messiah was to be one annointed by God, but not to actually BE God Himself.
And apart from me there is no other saviour.
your point?
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?Ponder what Eli says to the sons of disobedience:And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Genesis 22:7-8 (KJV, but check out any translation of the text)Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. The place in the Scripture which he read was this:
"HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH."So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
Acts 8:23-35He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:25-27
"If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him;
but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?"
As the Rabbis attest, "Who can forgive sins but God Alone?"
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth."
Job 19:25
Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?"
Numbers 14:11"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
John 10:37-38
Who went up to heaven, and cometh down?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound waters in a garment?
Who established all ends of the earth?
What [is] His name? and what His son's name?
Surely thou knowest!
Proverbs 30:4
The Jews, and other unitarians, do not see that verse as a reference to a trinity.
Check out the original interpretation of that verse here:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq065.html
No time to completely address your other post now but if you want me to, i will do so at a later date. (Company due in for the next few days, and then i will be out of town 'til the end of the month.)Bottom line though, if you really WANT to believe in a trinity, you'll find ways to do so.
Can you point out anywhere in the OT, that claims messiah is to actually be God incarnate?
Isaiah 63 (this is the New Life version) -
1 Who is this Who comes from Edom, with dark red clothing from Bozrah? Who is this One Who is beautiful in His clothing, walking in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I, Who speaks what is right and good, powerful to save."
2 Why is Your clothing red? Why is Your clothing like his who crushes the grapes?
3 "I have crushed the grapes alone. From the people there was no man with Me. I crushed them in My anger. I was angry as I stepped on them. And their life blood is on My clothing, and all My clothing is red.
4 "For the day of punishment was in My heart. And My year to save My people and make them free has come. 5 I looked, and there was no one to help. I wondered that there was no one to help. So My own arm brought saving power to Me, and My anger helped Me."
Isaiah 53:5 -
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
“And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him."
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:15-16
The Word of the Lord following the command to listen to the prophet like Moses from among your people -
"And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know ,the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." So that if a word of a prophet is spoken and fulfilled that prophet is to be feared, according to the Word spoken to Moses.
Here is the testimony used to crucify the prophet Jesus:
“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’”
Mark 14:58
And here is the testimony of those who saw the word fulfilled, and feared, and yet were told not to be afraid (for the wrath of God was paid in full when His blood was shed on the cross!):
Matthew 28
1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:1-3
"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The LORD said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this:
God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
Acts 2:32-36
Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple,“How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?
For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:
‘ The LORD said to my Lord,
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?”
And the common people heard Him gladly.
Mark 12:35-37
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