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To: bornacatholic
Supersessionism is not Catholic Doctrine. Never has been. Never will be. Your odd ideas about theology are in no way attributable to Catholic Doctrine nor are they to be found in Catholic Doctrine. You have no idea about what constitutes Catholic Doctrine. Your odd and irrational claims can not be found in any Ecuemnical Council Document, any Papal Encyclical, any Catechism, any Catholic Encyclopedia, or any Catholic Dictionary.

Here it is in Latin: Concilio de Florence, La Bulla Cantate Domino, 1442

See also MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI [ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII] (paragraphs 29, 32)

From Wikipedia:

Supersessionism was traditionally considered by the Roman Catholic Church to be its ex cathedra irreformable position on the relationship with post-Messianic Judaism. The Council of Florence of the 15th century solemnly defined, that "(...) and Jews (...) are damned to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" if they consciously and obstinately refuse to embrace the Catholic Christian Faith.[2] The only logical explanation for this teaching then was, that Judaism of the Old Testament had been replaced by or rather transferred to the New Testament with its own law and sacred rites. In fact this is what Popes taught throughout all centuries. Pope Pius XII also re-affirmed this doctrine in his encyclical Mystici Corporis (June 29th, 1943), when he authoritatively taught, that "the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished" and that "on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. 'To such an extent, then,' says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, 'was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.'" Pope Pius XII also clearly condemned the two-path approach dividing Gentile and Jew once again as in the Old Testament, when he taught, that "Christ, by His blood, made the Jews and Gentiles one 'breaking down the middle wall of partition...in His flesh' by which the two peoples were divided; and that He made the Old Law void 'that He might make the two in Himself into one new man,' that is, the Church, and might reconcile both to God in one Body by the Cross." Hereby Pope Pacelli doctrinally affirmed, that the Church was from the beginning established for the salvation of all people, both Jews and gentiles, thereby excluding the possibility of a two-path-approach for all Roman Catholics.[3]

In the 20th century, certain hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church issued a number of theological position papers which appear to reject this concept outright, and affirm that the Torah is a valid path for Jews and Jewish proselytes to achieve salvation, that their covenant with God is still valid, and that the Jews of modern times are a direct unbroken continuation of the ancient Children of Israel. This view is not accepted by all Roman Catholic theologians, and it is rejected outright by traditional Catholics though it has been reaffirmed several times by various contemporary Catholic hierarchs. The Catholic Church no longer proclaims - according to some - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, supposedly subtly shifting, in the teaching of Pope John Paul II, to the axiom "Sine Ecclesia Nulla Salus"- that is, that although the presence of the Church in the world makes salvation possible, membership of the Church is by no means required in order for individuals to be saved. The Catholic Church however recently affirmed the necessity of Jesus for salvation in the declaration Dominus Iesus. However, although salvation comes from Christ, the teaching of the Church expressed in the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium is that those "who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience" may by some extraordinary way achieve salvation - the conditions for which however are traditionally believed to be very strict and implying isolation and invincible ignorance.

Furthermore, another Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, as well as the repeated comments of Pope John Paul II, according to some clearly repudiate supersessionism by insisting that the divine covenant which constitutes Israel as a nation remains permanently in force. However at the time of its approbation at Vatican II it was not understood as dispensationalist at all, mainly as affirming that the Old Testament's promise was never taken away, but was "perfected" in the New Testament religion and thus, that the Old Testemant had been transferred into the New Testament, while being abolished and void of salvification if taken only by itself.

Despite some universalist backtracking by JP II in his last years of decline and probably due to the influence of the liberal theological element in Rome, the position of Rome has been and remains officially that of supersessionism.

I suppose you have to decide if you believe one pope or another. But the official infallible teaching has not been altered despite some theological politicking and the usual double-talk in the last years of a pope who was obviously not in his mental prime.

You might want to review where the liberal RC theologians are going with this thinking:

Boston College: A Sacred Obligation: Rethinking Christian Faith In Relation To Judaism And The Jewish People.

Notice how they "renounce" a belief you say that Catholics have never held.

Look at the headings:
It's so unfortunate that Jesus and His disciples and the entire early church were so unaware of the vicious antisemitism involved in converting Jews to Christianity. I guess the whole thing you RCs have going with Peter, a converted Jew, was a mistake because he didn't need to convert at all to be in covenant with God.

Sounds like Catholics are getting closer to an open universalism. Perhaps Benedict can issue a new encyclical "Allo Doggus Goeth Unto Heavenus".
149 posted on 08/11/2006 7:39:04 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
I'm going to post a piece by Avery Cardinal Dulles. I hope it will be useful.

You are not Catholic. Further, you make the mistake of thinking Wipikedia is a reliable source for Catholic Doctrine.

I think it risible that non-Catholics pontificate so dogmatically about that which they know little of.

Sadly, I know that won't stop.

As for Johannes Paulus Magnus, even in his debilitating illness, he never gave any sign his mental acuity had diminished.

172 posted on 08/11/2006 9:52:04 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: George W. Bush
* I found what I was looking for. Supercessionism is a form of the old Marcionite heresy

Mark Shea... A Jewish commenter makes the common mistake of confusing Marcionism with Catholic teaching. Not surprising since so many Catholics do too. Supersessionism and the idea that the Old Testament is somehow revoked by the New is a big no-no in Catholic teaching. "They are Israelites, and to them belong [note present tense] the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race according to the flesh, is the Christ" (Rom. 9:4-5). The New Covenant (a term the apostles get from the lips of Jesus himself, who in turn consciously borrows from Jeremiah 31:31-34) does not abolish but fulfills the Old. Yes, there are aspects of Old Testament ritual and ceremony which are, from the Catholic perspective, no longer necessary since the Reality who is Christ has come (a moot point for most Christians anyway since they are Gentiles). The epistle to the Hebrews (and Romans and Galatians) are about this. But it is Marcion, not Christianity, who took the term "Old Testament" to mean "obsolete testament". The Christian picture is found instead in the image of the wild olive branch grafted onto the cultivated tree. Paul's warning to supercessionists is grave: You do not support the root, the root supports you. (Romans 11)

186 posted on 08/11/2006 10:55:34 AM PDT by bornacatholic
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