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To: politicallyincarrect
What is "crystal clear" is the fact that our salvation is a free gift that accepted by faith. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy, he saved us...." Titus

That I agree with. But it doesn't follow that faith alone saves. Scripture EXPLICITLY says that faith alone DOES NOT SAVE! NOWHERE in my reply to you did I say that my work ALONE save! The Scriptures says that explicitly.

I'd quote most of the second half of James 2, but the ending will be sufficient:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26

The verses that you posted all point to a simple fact... That apart from Christ and His power in us.. We are unable to do anything..

That's right. Nothing I can do alone is meritorious for salvation. And again, faith alone does not save, either.

Good works are the FRUIT of salvation, not the ROOT of salvation. It is absolutely correct to question one's salvation if there is no fruit.. If there is no love, joy, peace, etc.. If there is no fruit, and an absence of good works, then one may assume that there is no "ROOT" of salvation

Tell me, where does the Bible say expicitly that good works necessarily MUST follow faith? I already quoted you something from St. Paul that destroys that "idea": "...and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" 1 Cor 13:2

Think it over for a second before you skip reading this verse again. If I have ALL FAITH, but HAVE NO LOVE, I AM NOTHING! That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for faith always leading to works of love! And along with James 2, we have a total destruction of any theological concept that tries to say that faith MUST yield works (of love). The NT Scripture is FULL of people with faith, but no or little love!!! Practically EVERY letter of St. Paul is full of exhortations to "saved" Christians to love, because they were NOT!!!

And secondly, both faith AND love come from God! Faith is not something from you, nor is works of love! Both are gifts of grace from God. But if you don't have love, that faith that God gave you is of no salvific help.

The problem, as I see it, is that your definition of works is not biblical. "Works", according to St. Paul, is not everything a person does. It is the attitude that when I do something, I deserve a payment! When I "work", whether it is obeying the commandments, or whatever, and demand a reward, what I did is not of grace. St. Paul defines it in Romans:

"But unto him that works, the reward is not reckoned as grace, but as debt Romans 4:4

This is KEY to understanding St. Paul on justification! It is NOT a good deed that is worthless, (as Paul continuously exhorts Christians to do good and avoid evil so as to make their election sure) but the attitude, not unlike the Pharisees, that thinks that one can make God owe a man salvation. St. Paul explicitly denies this attitude has any merit in Romans 3 and 4.

"Abiding in Christ" is one of the evidences that one is saved...

Depends on what you mean by "saved". Scripture doesn't give us the idea of "Once saved, always saved". But it does tell us that a person is healed (saved) when they receive Baptism, the gift of the Spirit. But again, it doesn't follow that we will REMAIN healed.

There will not be any self boasting in Heaven... All there will confess that they owe 100% of their soul's salvation to Christ and what he accomplished by His own death, burial, and resurrection.

That is true in a sense. But we are not saved by Christ's grace and work if we refuse His graces. We ALWAYS have the ability to reject the Spirit - until the day we die. While even this choice is molded by God Himself, there is still a sense of cooperation in my choice to follow God or to follow my own self. Again, nothing that I do ALONE is salvific. But in Christ, I am a new creation - my actions are raised to a new level, as Christ is working within me the will and ability to do meritorious deeds.

If we think we can bring our "good works" to God as an "offering" for our salvation.. We are taking upon ourselve the religion of Cain.. We all know who Cain was... He's the one that rejected God's way and established his own way... Which was unacceptable to God...

Wrong. The Bible doesn't say that at all.

"Then the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest good, it shall certainly be accepted; and if thou doest not good, sin lies at the door. And his desire shall be unto thee, but thou must rule over him." Gen 4:6-7

Your interpretation is clearly incorrect. Correct interpretation of the Scriptures, again, point to St. Paul's version of what work is. Cain felt he was entitled to a reward, that God owed him, while Abel apparently did not - as BOTH did good deeds, on the outside, but Cain's was not acceptable because of his inner dispositions. Abel's was out of love and thanksgiving, Cain was out of "where's my reward?", or at least "I am doing this because I have to, not because I want to". Clearly, NO ONE can make God into a debtor. THAT is what St Paul is saying throughout Romans and Galatians regarding justification, not that good deeds are bad!

I suggest that if you were to go through St. Paul's writings with this idea in mind, that no one can EARN salvation by his good deeds, but abiding in Christ, our good deeds of love (with proper inner disposition instilled by the Spirit) are NECESSARY for salvation, the Bible will make much more sense. Plus, it happens to be the way the earliest Christians interpreted the Apostolic letters, as well.

Regards

54 posted on 08/10/2006 4:52:17 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus

The words of this hymn, which I love, stands in stark contrast to the Cain based religions of the World. Cain was angry because God said that his offering was not acceptable... God even provided a sin offering for Cain, but Cain rejected God's way.

Jesus Christ paid the full price of our salvation. It is a humbling thing to receive such a great gift.. As for my own personal experience... I just "gave up" trying to earn God's salvation on my terms, and by the grace of God, and prompted by the Spirit of God, and the word of God just simply accepted God's free gift on His terms.

Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.


55 posted on 08/10/2006 9:42:37 PM PDT by politicallyincarrect ( (Darwinism is the Religion of Atheists))
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To: jo kus

>>>>There will not be any self boasting in Heaven... All there will confess that they owe 100% of their soul's salvation to Christ and what he accomplished by His own death, burial, and resurrection.<<<<

>>That is true in a sense.<<

It's Biblical theology, my friend.

>>But we are not saved by Christ's grace and work if we refuse His graces. We ALWAYS have the ability to reject the Spirit - until the day we die. While even this choice is molded by God Himself, there is still a sense of cooperation in my choice to follow God or to follow my own self. Again, nothing that I do ALONE is salvific. But in Christ, I am a new creation - my actions are raised to a new level, as Christ is working within me the will and ability to do meritorious deeds.<<

For the sake of argument.. Let's say that what you are trying say is true.. Has there ever been a time in your own personal life where you believed that you you had done enough "meritorious deeds" to warrant God's salvation?

For the sake of argument... Let's say (and I admit that this is speculation on my part).. Let's say that you felt that you had reached a point where you have been able to say... Yes, I believe that I have done enough "meritorious deeds"... What standard do you use to come to such a conclusion?

Remember... We're talking about our own personal standing before God.. Not man's estimation of whether or not we "measure up"... Do you have an "assurance verse" that tells you when, by your own "meritorious deeds" that you possess eternal life?



56 posted on 08/10/2006 10:03:21 PM PDT by politicallyincarrect ( (Darwinism is the Religion of Atheists))
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