Posted on 08/08/2006 12:04:25 PM PDT by NYer
I say we post the daily T.A. McMahon column and see if they survive even 5 or 6 posts.
Since I mentioned T.A. McMahon, I'm wondering if this post will last another 5 or 6 posts.
The thread was posted and pinged to the Catholic list. Others who choose to join the discussion are always welcome.
It would be TOO easy to post "I was a former Catholic" threads.
Go right ahead! Catholics are all too familiar with 'former' members who have separated themselves from the flock to pursue personal ideologies, not in conformity with the Magisterium. Whereas, the flood of converts into the Catholic Church is comprised of large numbers of protestant ministers who have studied theology and spent a lifetime searching for the truth. Their journey is often quite painful as it means leaving behind their congregations, friends and family.
I'm too polite to do it.
Is that true, xzins??? Jeepers, it's news to me. Certainly my dearest sister in Christ who is a Southern Baptist seems completely unaware of this too.
And Catholics agree with you. You can't earn your salvation by works or by anything else.
In the Catholic view, justification and salvation are ours because we are adopted into God's family and become his sons and daughters, not by nature (as Christ is) but by grace. They aren't a consequence of works, good or otherwise.
By the same token, faith without works is dead faith with no power to save. I didn't make that up, it's a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James.
And that's wrong, how, exactly?
There's plenty of proselytism of Catholics by Protestants on FR. There are also plenty of threads posted by Protestants on FR which blatantly misrepresent Catholic doctrine. There are whole threads devoted almost entirely to calling Catholics idolaters. I've been flatly accused of worshipping Mary as a "goddess equal to the Trinity" when I vehemently denied on the same thread that I do any such thing. There are well known Protestant posters who have no problem with using insulting epithets like "Romanist" and "Romish".
Not to mention, outside FR, that there are plenty of fundamentalist and evangelical churches in the US that are practically 100% composed of former Catholics. There are many, many fundamentalist and evangelical churches which go out of their way to recruit among the Hispanic population, almost all of whom are at least nominal Catholics.
Why shouldn't we proselytize?
You're missing the point entirely. The acts he's calling "meritorious" are those performed by the justified. He doesn't need to perform any acts to earn salvation, he already has it.
The Council of Trent's first canon on justification flatly denies that justification can be earned by keeping the law apart from divine grace.
It depends entirely upon the particular baptist church in question. Having been raised baptist, but now being methodist, I have some knowledge in this area.
In pre-Charismatic movement days, the question afoot in many churches (not just baptist) was, "Why don't we see the gifts of the Spirit operating in our day as they operated in the Book of Acts."
In some of those churches, the teaching was "Those were sign-gifts to that first generation Church before the completion/compiling of the New Testament canon, so they could see the authority of the Holy Spirit behind the operation of the Apostles, and then have assistance in knowing the correct location of the real Christians."
Once the canon was completed, then there was no longer need for such expression, according to this line of reasoning. Indeed, they still suggest that most of what we know as tongues and interpretation is a bit hokey. (A sentiment that I am nearly in agreement with.)
Unfortunately, they overlooked the many administrations of Spiritual gifts that Paul mentioned besides tongues and interpretation.....helping, hospitality, discerning, etc. I doubt that any of them would deny that God doesn't give some Christians mega-doses of these gifts.
Thank you!
>>You're missing the point entirely. <<
I believe that my post was right on point... The context of my question "Has there ever been a time in your own personal life when you believed that you had done enough "meritorious deeds" to warrant God's salvation"; was in direct response to a statement that basically said that "faith plus meritorious works are necessary for salvation.."
There seems to be much confusion on this issue.. I'll reiterate a previous statement that I made that may provide some clarification to all concerned... "Good works are the FRUIT of salvation, NOT the ROOT of salvation"...
Salvation is a free grace gift which is received by faith... IF a person has actually received this gift, good works will result. Good works are the EFFECT of salvation, Good works are NOT the CAUSE of salvation. Good works are the evidence of salvation, they are not the means of one "meriting" salvation.
The Bible has much to say about "Justification"... We're told that we are justified by "grace" and by "faith", that is the "means" by which God conveys justification to us. We are justified by blood, that is the "price" of our justification... We are justified by the resurrection of Christ, that is the "proof" from God of our justification, and we are justified by "works", that is the practical "evidence" that we have been justified..
Have you ever asked yourself this question.. If you were standing at the gate of Heaven and were asked "Why should we allow you to come in?", what would your answer be? Would you say, "because I'm Catholic", or "because I've done the best I could", or "because I've got a lot of people praying for me", or would you say, "because God promised that if I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose for my justification that I would have a home in Heaven forever."
Which answer best fits your reply to such a question?
>>>>What is "crystal clear" is the fact that our salvation is a free gift that accepted by faith.
And Catholics agree with you. You can't earn your salvation by works or by anything else.<<<<
>>In the Catholic view, justification and salvation are ours because we are adopted into God's family and become his sons and daughters, not by nature (as Christ is) but by grace. They aren't a consequence of works, good or otherwise.<<
Amen!! That's what I believe as well... Although, I must say most Catholics that I've met would disagree with you..
>>By the same token, faith without works is dead faith with no power to save. I didn't make that up, it's a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James.<<
What we must understand about James is that he is presenting to us in very practical terms what faith is... If or faith doesn't produce works, then it's "dead faith"... In other words it's "profession" of faith rather than "confession" of faith... A mere "profession" of faith doesn't save anyone... This "professed faith" is in contrast to the "grace bestowed faith" mentioned in Ephesians 2:8,9,10
>>The wages of sin is death, eternal life is a gift. Gifts are not owed us, no matter OUR faith or love...<<
With this one verse and its acompanying comment you have completely destroys the argument that you were using up to now... If you offered a gift and I insisted paying for it... It wouldn't be a gift anymore, would it? By the same token, grace also...
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him
Romans 11:5 "...So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace..."
I haven't. I am not paying for anything. That's the whole point. I can't earn salvation by myself. Do you have a problem with me showing my appreciation for the gift given to me?
The fancy wordplay notwithstanding, faith alone does not save. The bible says so, as I have demonstrated. Here is another author, if you dislike the message of St. Paul and St. James...
"He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him". 1 John 2:4-5
"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." 1 John 2:9
Talk is cheap, brother...
"And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ: and love one another, as he hath given commandment unto us. And he that keepeth his commandments, abideth in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1 John 3:23-24
"He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life." 1 John 5:12
If you aren't walking in the ways of the Lord due to His abiding presence, you will not have eternal life. Faith alone doesn't save unto heaven. All the faith in the world is meaningless without Christ's abiding presence.
Clearly, you need to revisit my last post and re-read the part about what "work" is, as you still don't understand it.
Regards
>>"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." 1 John 2:9
Talk is cheap, brother...<<
Where did this "hate" come from? Are you projecting your own feelings about me? I certainly don't "hate" you... And I would challenge you to provide a shred of evidence that would I imply that I do... I thought you were interested in discussing the issues.. That, my friend, was evidently a lapse of judgement on my part...
I continued: "Talk is cheap, brother...<<
You wrote: Where did this "hate" come from? Are you projecting your own feelings about me? I certainly don't "hate" you...
What an unfortunate turn of events. How have you turned my citation of Scripture into a personal attack? Is this another debate tactic? Turn your opponent's argument into an attack on your person. Try to change the subject when you know you are not advancing your opinion.
I am not personally attacking you! I am merely saying that saying that one is saved is "cheap talk", as John says on several occasions. He even calls such a one a "liar". I didn't identify this to you personally! I don't even know you. As far as I know, you might be the most kind and considerate person I know, another Mother Teresa. My comment is Biblical, as St. James says
"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?" James 2:14-16
In other words, talk is cheap. Nothing to do with you personally.
Jesus says the same thing:
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23
This is what I meant by "talk is cheap".
My responses to you have thoroughly shredded the idea of Sola Fide. It is simply not biblical. Frankly, it is ANTI-Biblical, if you take the time to read James 2. I have given ample evidence that Sola Fide is a false teaching that tickles the ears. It is a false teaching, one that the devil just loves to hear. If he can get Christians to stop "working out their salvation in fear and trembling", then he can roam around like a lion, bringing Christians "back to the vomit" of their former lives. Sola Fide breeds a presumption that God owes you salvation because you said a sentence in your life!
That being said, despite your error, I wish you well in your search for God's Truth. If you are ever open to considering God's truth, rather than such lies, FP mail me. You won't get the truth in a protesting community...
Regards
Since you've decided to take this discussion to the level of misrepresentations and snide remarks... I think you would do well to take your own advice...
The only thing that you've proved in this whole discussion is that you are unwilling to listen.. No matter what is being said... If you had listened to what I said... And the verses that I quoted... You would not have found it necessary to make some of the foolish statements that you've made...
My hope for you is that you will some day have the confidence in Christ and His word that you now have in your religion...
I hope that some day that you'll be delivered from the errors of transubstantiation, Apostolic succession, veneration of Mary, and the like.. All of which are inventions of mere men.. And are soundly refuted by a study of the Scriptures...
Where has he done that?
The only thing that you've proved in this whole discussion is that you are unwilling to listen.
An objective review of the posts will demonstrate the exact opposite.
>>An objective review of the posts will demonstrate the exact opposite.<<
Sounds like a pretty biased comment to me... :-)
And yours wasn't?
I have no idea where this is coming from. I have never heard any Evangelical say or think that. Perhaps you have met the wrong person or people? Wow, this is just not true. (not saying you are making it up, just saying it is a misunderstanding of some sort.)
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