Who Really Stands with Israel?

American Vision ^ | 6/07/2006 | Gary DeMar

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yes, they say as long as they are in the tribe, they need not worry about salvation, they're already saved. Is that right, or not?

Most don't look at it it terms of salvation. Most religious Jews embrace the Kabbalistic concept of "Tikun Olam" which means to repair the world. The ideal way of doing that is by living God's commands given at Sinai (not to say Christians don't). I think its a better concept than to believe the world is doomed hence focusing primarily on preparing for life in a different realm. After all, we are here for a reason. Its my belief correct doctrine cannot be the answer. Its my opinion that "do" is preferable to "believe". Moses apparenty beleived the same thing. Deut 30:

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

[1000 silverlings]

I am not denying that many are descended from Abraham. I am not denying that Jews can trace their ancestry back for many generations. However, you must realize that the Arabs also claim descent from Abraham, but, and it is a real big but, the promise contained in the Plan of Salvation, came through Isaac and Jacob, and David, not thru Ishmael and Mohammed. Isn't this what the trouble in the world today is all about or partly?

Is there a "Christian Race"? Are Greeks Christian? How about the Irish? Or the Italians, or the Spanish?

Or do Christians of all races know that "by grace they are saved"? Do we claim descent from Japtheth and that saves us? Of course not. Like Abraham, we believe.

If race saves, then the Arabs have as much claim to the Plan of Salvation thru Mohammed as Christians do thru Jesus. They believe that, but Jews and Christians do not.

[HarleyD]

Time will tell, of course, but one would be negligence not to ponder the fact that racial Israel is again occupying their ancestral land.

In a way I believe you're correct but only so far as events go. However, there is a great danger in trying to read into the scriptures things based upon our surroundings. History is littered with people who donned white sheets and stood on hilltops waiting for Christ simply because they thought they had the eschatological answer.

I mean this in the best sort of way, really I do. But the idea of the Jews being "blessed" has no room in Christian theology either from a biblical or a historical perspective. The Bible teaches that Christians have been "grafted" into Judaism. Jews and Gentiles are merged into Christians. We don't exist as a dual group. For over 1900 years this was the teaching of the church.

I mean this kindly but it borders on blasphemy to suggest that Jews hold some esteem with God the Father. This is simply not the case. Paul's heart ached for the Jews just as our hearts should to see them come to know Christ.

God is not in the habit of blessing a group of people who reject His Son. And I bet He knew this when He issued the promises to Abraham 6,000 years ago. He never blessed the Jews in the Old Testament when they rebelled so why should we assume He'll do it now?

[1000 silverlings]

As I understand it, Jews believe in the "world to come" and what a wonderful world it will be.. That most Jews believe in living righteously and worshipping the One True God. That God and spiritual Israel are One. I know about the tikkun and the sparks of light.

As Christians, to "do" as well as "believe" should be our goal as well, and I do believe many quietly go about it, yet many do not. Both of us are called to be the "light" in this dark world, a task and a duty, that we should take very, very seriously. Being a spiritual creature immersed in a material world is most difficult, yet we strive to overcome. I believe with all my heart that the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New, is our guide to overcoming. Thanks, Silverlings

[Alex Murphy]

God is not in the habit of blessing a group of people who reject His Son.

Ding ding ding ding ding ding! And now you know why I'm a postmillennialist - because I expect that God will reward faithful behavior to a greater degree, in time space and history, than Satan can reward unfaithful behavior.

For premillennialism to come to pass, we must believe that God fails to bless the faithful, and fails to punish the wicked, meanwhile the wicked manage reap blessings - to progressively amass increasing power, assets, and responsibilities over time and throughout history - despite the curses prescribed in Genesis, Exodus and Deuteronomy for violating God's commandments. Only the Second Coming itself (or is it the Third Coming, since the Rapture is pretrib?) is powerful enough to intervene and stop humankind from doing what they first tried at the Tower of Babel. Christ's church, of which it's said "the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it", was apparently sent to the wrong front to fight.

In short, premillennialism is the statistical flip-side of postmillennialism - Satan wins all the decisive skirmishes, while the church progressively loses ground until history itself ends.

[Buggman]

History is littered with people who donned white sheets and stood on hilltops waiting for Christ simply because they thought they had the eschatological answer.

It's also littered with those who perished because they refused to realize the signs of the times.

With all respect, Harley, you're being a bit inconsistant there. You claim that it is wrong to "to read into the scriptures things based upon our surroundings," but you would claim that it is right to read into the Scriptures things based upon Josephus' record of his surroundings. Candidly, preterists and historicists engage in "newspaper exegesis" every bit as much as Hal Lindsey does.

For over 1900 years this was the teaching of the church.

"Tradition without truth is error grown old." --Tertullian

I mean this kindly but it borders on blasphemy to suggest that Jews hold some esteem with God the Father.

You accuse the Apostle Paul of blasphemy?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
--Romans 11:25-29

It's amazing how fast you Reformists are to slander the Apostles in your haste to deny Israel's promises.

God is not in the habit of blessing a group of people who reject His Son.

But He's in the habit of blessing those who present a false image of His Son to said group of people so as to keep them from coming to faith? Anyway, you're still arguing with the Apostle here.

He never blessed the Jews in the Old Testament when they rebelled so why should we assume He'll do it now?

Not precisely true; He always blessed them by retaining a remnant of the faithful and by not destroying them utterly for their sins so that they could come to repentence afterwards.

Tell me, was Israel living righteously when Yeshua came? Or did God bless them with His Son despite a corrupt, non-Aaronic priesthood, blatant hypocrisy among the leadership, and sin? Or did He demand that they be righteous first before He sent the Messiah to redeem them?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

As I understand it, Jews believe in the "world to come" and what a wonderful world it will be..

That's certainly true however its left up to God as far as whom may take part. There's no obsession about who's in and who's out. There's a mandate here and now which takes considerable focus.

[xzins]

I am correct. Israel is occupying its ancestral land. There is no denying that fact. If anyone has doubts, let them watch this evening's news about war between Hezbollah and Israel. That pretty well settles it.

The biblical issue is determining if: (1) All "Israel" references in prophecy refer to racial Israel, (2) All "Israel" references in prophecy refer to the Church, or (3) There is a split and some refer to racial Israel and some refer to the Church.

Those are your only choices, and how many understand the bible's old and new testament prophetic passages so well that they can say that their way is the only possibility?

[1000 silverlings]

however its left up to God as far as whom may take part.

No argument from me.

[P-Marlowe]

Hey bugg. Where have you been? They pulled the last thread before you could even chime in. Bummer. I really wanted your take on the subject. (Of course the thread really got sidetracked after it got hijacked) They not only pulled the thread but banned the newbie that posted it. Bummer. He was quite eloquent. But he was also pretty blunt, which I suspect was his undoing. Then again he might have been a retread. Who knows?

Anyhow, welcome back.

[1000 silverlings]

So this Israel that you appear to be enamored of, is it "the light of the world"?

[Salvation]

Did all of you see this?

August 7, 2006

Rev. Rob Schenck, President of Faith and Action Read Rev. Schenck's Blog

"If I forget you, O Jerusalem, Let my right hand forget its skill! If I do not remember you, Let my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth-If I do not exalt Jerusalem, Above my chief joy." (Psalm 137:5-9, NKJ) Dear -----------------------------, On Friday, August 4th at five o'clock in the afternoon, Faith and Action hand delivered to the Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC, more than 8600 petitions supporting the Mayor of Jerusalem in his resistance to a massive world-wide homosexual march on the Holy City! These petitions were a tremendous demonstration of support for our Jewish and Christian brothers and sisters who are standing up against this moral affront. At a time when Israel is being ruthlessly attacked by Jihadists from north and south, liberal Europeans and secular judges are trying to force the largest homosexual orgy in history on the capital of the Jewish State and the world's spiritual capital. My Orthodox Jewish friend, Rabbi Yehudah Levin, called for our urgent support in his uphill campaign to cancel the event. I promised 5000 petitions, and instead, was able to deliver more than 8600! He is thrilled and tremendously encouraged by the Christian support he is receiving. But this battle is far from over. The so-called “gay rights movements” in the US along with certain elements in the UN and the European Community (who are already blaming Israel for the war with the terrorists) are waging moral terrorism against Jerusalem with millions of dollars. The faithful Orthodox Jews and most Christians in Israel are very poor - and cannot match the millions from private foundations and the European governments. Your emergency contribution will help win our effort to keep the Holy Land holy. I've promised Rabbi Levin and our Christian friends in Jerusalem that they can count on supporters of Faith and Action to help them wage spiritual warfare and counter the pro-homosexual propaganda that is flooding Israel in their most trying hour! Your contribution of $10, $25, $50, $100, or whatever you can sacrificially give will send a clear message of support and solidarity with Jewish and Christian believers in Jerusalem and throughout Israel. If you have watched the news, feeling helpless as Israel is pounded by Soviet-era rockets, Syrian bombs and Iranian mercenaries, this is your opportunity to help strengthen Israel's resolve and spiritually reinforce the battle! Make your emergency contribution to keep the Holy Land Holy now! Go to https://www.donation-net.net/faithandaction/donate.cfm right now and make your contribution. Thank you for standing by Israel and for keeping the Holy Land Holy! For Rabbi Levin and the people of Jerusalem, Rev. Rob Schenck And the Faith and Action team

[xzins]

I always think it's great when folks put words in my mouth. Do you have others you'd like to add?

That aside, the fact is that Israel is in their ancestral land. We might not like it, but while we're allowed our own personal opinions, we're not allowed our own personal facts.

There it is, Israel -- bold and brassy, bombing the snot out of Hezbollah every chance it gets.

So....which one of the three are you: racial, church, or split option?

[blue-duncan]

"In short, premillennialism is the statistical flip-side of postmillennialism - Satan wins all the decisive skirmishes, while the church progressively loses ground until history itself ends"

That is not an accurate portrayal of the pretrib position. The church will not be here when the judgments of the tribulation period fall. There will not be a great apostasy prior to the rapture. Jesus is coming "like a thief in the night" to take His bride. The world, during tribulation period, will experience a progressive failure of all of its security and trusting in itself and Satan. At each stage in the judgments there will be opportunity to repent but they will not and experience the progressive enhancement of God's judgments until Armageddon when it will be over. I don't see how you can say that the wicked or Satan enjoy any victory during this period of tribulation.

What we are seeing now with the seeming prosperity and increased power of the wicked is the same question Habakkuk asked in the second chapter and God's answer was and is evil (sin) carries with it the seeds of its own destruction (death) and it will come to pass according to God's timing.

[Buggman]

Sorry about that. I never even saw it. I think these days deleting a thread erases it from your ping file too.

[1000 silverlings]

Did I put words in your mouth? I don't think I did. However, when Ariel Sharon referred to himself, often and openly as "King of the Jews", what, as a Christian, did you think, exactly?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The biblical issue is determining if: (1) All "Israel" references in prophecy refer to racial Israel, (2) All "Israel" references in prophecy refer to the Church, or (3) There is a split and some refer to racial Israel and some refer to the Church.

The answer to the question: Is Israel a race or a religion? has always been "both".... There have always existed prostelytes as far back as Ruth. At the time there was no question that Ruth was a religious Jew as opposed to a racial Jew. Yet no Jew or Christian that I know of today questions her Jewishness.

[1000 silverlings]

Even so, come Lord Jesus!

[blue-duncan]

Hey, did we ever ask Buggman about his picks at Santa Anita? Of course it was during Shabbat but it was important.

[1000 silverlings]

Yet no Jew or Christian that I know of today questions her Jewishness.