More Weird Liturgy? "Our Lady" Rite Author Inspired By Labyrinth Walk

The Christian Challenge ^ | 7/28/2006 | Lee Penn

[Terabitten]

I REALLY like your tag. 8~)

Thanks - feel free to use it any time. :D

[Conservative til I die]

Implicit in the term "Mother of GOD" is that Mary was the creator of GOD and as such has special status.

Wrong as usual.

How come you don't believe Jesus is God?

[George W. Bush]

God bless you. It's the first step in evangelizing. In my church 25% of our members are former RC's and it can be hard for them because of what they've been taught.

Actually, it was a blessing to me. I was one of those who had always refused to set foot in a Roman church for any reason.

I'm not sure if my playing Advent songs did them any good though I was told they really enjoyed it and some of the older ladies in the church were warmed by the memory of my grandmother, a sweet woman they knew well. But the exercise gave rise to many sweet hours of devotion for me, an opportunity to repent my harshness and unloving attitude. And if there is some other purpose that God has in mind, I'm agreeable. I think the briefest summary I could give of how it affected me is that it has made my heart softer but not my doctrine. So I'm not trying to be a predator with Rome's followers either. Spurgeon once observed that we would go after all the theologically straying Christians (including Rome's) once we had preached the gospel to all those who had never heard it. Spurgeon never ran out of the unchurched to preach to, even in his day in an England far more Christian than it is today. And America is a far greater mission field today than it was 50-100 years ago. So we live in a great mission field and Catholics are not our first targets for evangelism. Catholics have heard the gospel and they have not been forbidden to read scripture unsupervised for the last 90 years. So they hear it, perhaps too briefly exposited, in their churches and they have opportunity and even some encouragement to study it at home. And the current generation of Catholics are the best lay bible students they've ever had. We've seen a few of them here at FR.

If they have the Word, they become as responsible as the rest of us. They can, as God leads them, know its counsel and its doctrine as fully as any other person.

I am not casual about Rome's errors. I've had occasion to speak seriously with a few Catholics on doctrinal issues and my real concern is that they hold the fundaments of Christian faith very firmly. That they know and thoroughly believe they are sinners, that a sinless and perfect Savior came to atone their sins, that He rose from the dead. Also, that they should know and understand their responsibility to obey Christ, His personal commandments and admonitions. For instance, to practice loving forgiveness toward those brethren who repent their errors or missteps and ask forgiveness, as many times as they are asked.

If we love Christ, whether Catholic or Protestant or Baptist, we will keep His commandments just as He instructed. And we will do it in the spirit of His law, not by the letter of it. If you forgive your brother's transgressions, then forgive them, something that I had occasion recently to observe is fundamental to any Christian's walk or to any sound church. And this follows perfectly upon His command to love one another as He loves us.

What a muddled post. Sometimes, the internet simply isn't conducive to expressing personal experience. Or else I need to be a better organized writer.

BTW, have you noticed that most ex-Catholics that you know are more devoted to scripture than are some of those who were raised as Protestant/Baptist/evangelical? The ones I've known left Rome's churches for their love of scripture. They respond to the supernatural power of the Word and are most eager to learn it and grasp every bit of it properly.

You might enjoy one of my favorite web sites, a portion of the ministry of Richard Bennett, a former RC priest: Berean Beacon. One of his latest sermons is "The Accomplishments Of John Paul II". He has a lot of streaming audio content available. He was a strong opponent of ECT and is in the forefront of those warning of the errors of the Emergent Church movement, something whose influence has even reached my remote area as we were warned about this Sunday in a nice sermon in a little house church I attended with some friends.

[George W. Bush]

I fall into that camp that was drawn and couldn't resist.

Ditto. It's most surprising if you're an atheist without hope of holding faith, off in your own little world beyond sermons and witnessing and perhaps with few prayers being offered sincerely on your behalf. And yet, God can send His grace to quicken the spirit of any hardened unbeliever and draw them to Him. It is an amazing thing to know that you are the object of His grace and mercy and have no one but Him to thank for it. I am still a very flawed Christian but I am grateful that He alone is the Author and Source of my faith.

It is a precious thing to know that those portions of scripture that are such a stumbling block to many are the only verses that explain to some of us how God has brought us to Him. The experience has not made me an exceptional Christian by any means. But it does demonstrate God's glory and mercy to even the most undeserving.

[George W. Bush]

I know many Catholics that know Scripture better than Protestants.

Perhaps it would be better to say "I know many Catholics that know Scripture better than some Protestants." Or even "many Protestants". And toss in the Baptists and evangelicals and charismatics with the "Protestants" here.

Sound Protestants and Baptists and evangelicals do not pretend that all in their churches are sound. Or even saved. A pity Rome won't be so honest about her own flock but instead pretends that her sacramental system and purgatory will accomplish their salvation instead.

Pew-sitting in Rome's churches is no more the salvation of a sinner that warming a pew in a Baptist church.

[George W. Bush]

As to the 25 percent of ex-Catholics that attend your church, what does that constitute? Three or four members? You sound like you belong to an Independent Baptist church and they can have as little as 40 members sometimes.

And how many members did the house church of Lydia constitute? How many members were in each of the ancient churches described in scripture? How many members does it take to make a 'real church'?

Careful here. There are three very small Roman Catholic churches in my area. Don't force me to tell them that other Catholics are asserting they are unsaved solely for the reason that they worship with fewer than '40 members'. For instance, the Roman church where I played Advent songs was smaller than many people's living rooms. And had only a single small crucifix and a very small (almost neglected) statue of Mary over at the corner of the dais. Other than those two items, it could have been taken for most any humble Protestant or Baptist church from a generation or two ago. Given that it was rather plain (and thankfully didn't contain a solid gold statue of Mary that was eight feet tall which would have caused me to flee), it was a charming little chapel. I couldn't help but observe that there were far more ornate and expensive Protestant churches in the area. And that is not any compliment to those Protestant churches by any means.

[George W. Bush]

Book description: And he shows that saint worship is not just a pious devotion that Christians can take or leave as they choose. Rather, it must be part of the faith of every Christian, for it serves as a critical safeguard against atheism, pantheism, and idolatry.

Many Baptists and Protestants do in fact study the struggles of the ancient churches against heretics and the corruption of the Word. It is as profitable to us as it is to members of Rome's churches.

But we don't worship or venerate those ancient Christians. Not even Athanasius or Augustine. BTW, you are aware that Calvin and all of us who subscribe to the doctrines of grace he expounded are doing no more than believing in those portions of Augustine's teachings which Rome rejects? So I don't believe in Saint Calvin or Saint Augustine. But I have considerable regard for their teachings on doctrine and don't pretend they were sinless or more immune to temptation or sin than I am.

Given the rise of modern heresy, no Christian should be without the counsel offered by those we commonly refer to as the Ante-Nicene Fathers of the ancient churches. For instance, I had cause recently to investigate Bishop Lucifer and the Luciferian sect as reactionaries to the forgiveness of those who participated even slightly in the Arian heresy. It's a sound study for any person. And the Luciferians didn't outlast their first generation. But then again, I know many Baptists who don't have a clue who Athanasius was. I bet I could find plenty of Catholics who don't either.

[George W. Bush]

"Mission Accomplished" by Christ alone.

The real source of conflict between Rome and Prots/Baptists/evangelicals in the matter of Marian devotion/worship/intercession.

Looks like you're solidly on the Protestant side here.

[George W. Bush]

Amen. We once interviewed a realtor who said "Blessed Be." That was the last time we saw him.

I would point out that 'Wicca' is actually a modern pagan belief, largely invented in the second decade of the last century and in the wake of the occult movement of the late nineteenth century.

Let's not give credence to their foolish and unhistorical claims of some ancient pedigree for their modern manufactured pagan religion. It's not much more ancient than Scientology and just as poorly founded. They're no more than modern and rather silly pagans, re-enacting some supposed ancient religion that has actually existed less than a hundred years.

Besides, I still like to sing "Blessed Be The Tie That Binds", a sweet and devotional hymn of the Reformation. It was written by John Fawcett, a Baptist brought to faith under the preaching of Whitefield in the early eighteenth century.

Let's not abandon it merely because of some modern gullible pagan wannabe's.

A brief podcast on the history of this great hymn: Stories Of Great Hymns

[wmfights]

"BTW, have you noticed that most ex-Catholics that you know are more devoted to scripture than are some of those who were raised as Protestant/Baptist/evangelical? "
__________________________

I'll have to think about this one. I don't know. I do know that once the Spirit inside turns the person early on they can't get enough SCRIPTURE, long term I am not sure.

[wmfights]

"It is an amazing thing to know that you are the object of His grace and mercy and have no one but Him to thank for it. I am still a very flawed Christian but I am grateful that He alone is the Author and Source of my faith."
________________________________

Amen!

[George W. Bush]

It is amazing when the most unlikely and difficult verses of scripture turn out to be about you personally.

But the Father does glorify Himself powerfully through the Son and the outworking of His plan. Funny how you never grasp all those verses about the glory of God and how faith is a gift from God until you experience it or know someone who has.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is not merely poetic or literary language. It is literally true.

[FJ290]

And how many members did the house church of Lydia constitute? How many members were in each of the ancient churches described in scripture? How many members does it take to make a 'real church'? Careful here. There are three very small Roman Catholic churches in my area. Don't force me to tell them that other Catholics are asserting they are unsaved solely for the reason that they worship with fewer than '40 members'.

You are totally missing the point of what I said. You made a positive assertion that 25% percent of your church are ex Roman Catholics. I asked you what your church membership was.. stating that some Baptist churches can have as little as 40 members. I NEVER said that the size of a church has to do with whether someone is saved or not. I am warning others here to be careful of possibly exaggerated numbers.

[FJ290]

Perhaps it would be better to say "I know many Catholics that know Scripture better than some Protestants." Or even "many Protestants". And toss in the Baptists and evangelicals and charismatics with the "Protestants" here.

Baptists, evangelicals, and charismatics are Protestants. I don't care how many times Baptists want to say they aren't Protestants, historically you came out of the Reformation just like your other Protestant counterparts.

Sound Protestants and Baptists and evangelicals do not pretend that all in their churches are sound. Or even saved. A pity Rome won't be so honest about her own flock but instead pretends that her sacramental system and purgatory will accomplish their salvation instead.

LOL! Who ever made an assertion that we are perfect?

Pew-sitting in Rome's churches is no more the salvation of a sinner that warming a pew in a Baptist church.

See, this is where I am going to have to call you on this. Most Baptists I know think that once saved, always saved which is very much against Catholic doctrine. I would surmize that pew sitting amongst the Baptists would lead them to believe that they are saved.

[dangus]

>> Many Baptists and Protestants do in fact study the struggles of the ancient churches against heretics and the corruption of the Word. It is as profitable to us as it is to members of Rome's churches....But we don't worship or venerate those ancient Christians. <<

Well, by the way that book's author is using the word, you do.

[George W. Bush]

...I don't care how many times Baptists want to say they aren't Protestants, historically you came out of the Reformation just like your other Protestant counterparts.

Actually, the Church of England separated from Rome. Many in England wanted to embrace the fuller doctrines of their continental Reformation brethren. In general, these were the Puritans. Among this group were some who came to be called the Separatists who were similar but not the same as the already established Presbyterians and other Puritans. From the Separatists came the Congregationalists, the fourth of the great Reformation churches, distinguished by its strong belief in local control of churches. The Baptists came from them due mostly to their belief in the baptism of believers only, just as depicted in the New Testament.

In 1609, John Smyth led a group of separatists to the Netherlands to start the General Baptist church with an Arminian theology. In 1616, Henry Jacob led a group of Puritans in England with a Calvinist theology to form a congregational church that would eventually become the Particular Baptists in 1638 under John Spilsbury. Both groups had members who sailed to America as pilgrims to avoid religious persecution in England and Europe and who started Baptist churches in the early colonies. The Particular and General Baptists would disagree over Arminianism and Calvinism until the formation of the Baptist Union of Great Britain in the 1800s under Andrew Fuller and William Carey for the purpose of missions. American Baptists soon followed suit.

This is the Separatist view of Baptist history. Most informed Baptists believe this. The competing Landmark and Anabaptist views of Baptist history is not credible outside certain circles.

So you can call us Protestants. But it's not entirely accurate or a clear distinction. And the earliest Baptists were Arminian, not Calvinist/Augustinian.

[FJ290]

So you can call us Protestants. But it's not entirely accurate or a clear distinction. And the earliest Baptists were Arminian, not Calvinist/Augustinian.

According to this Baptist website, it's pretty accurate to call Baptists Protestants:

Baptist Contributions to Protestantism

Baptist Beginnings

[George W. Bush]

Well, by the way that book's author is using the word, you do.

Worship Mary? Worship dead Christians of ancient renown?

Dream on.

Admiring them, studying their struggles, making certain we do not repeat their errors or the errors of their heretical adversaries, these are the object of our interest.

We do not worship them. We do not venerate them devotionally (though admiration can get close). Most importantly, we do not pray to them for intercession for our sins or to answer particular worldly needs.

For instance, let's examine the attributes of just one of the venerated saints of Rome (via Wikipedia):

Saint Fiacre (or Fiachra) was born in Ireland in the seventh century. He was better known in France, where he built a hospice for travellers in what is now Saint-Fiacre. His relics are installed in Meaux Cathedral. In Ireland his feast day is 1 September; elsewhere it is 18 August.

He is the patron saint of:

Taxi drivers

The first horse-drawn carriages in France were offered outside the Hotel Saint-Fiacre in Paris. This later led to him becoming the patron of taxi-drivers and to fiacre becoming a word in the French language for a carriage.

Venereal disease

Fiacre was famously misogynistic, which, it is argued, is the reason he became connected with venereal disease sufferers.

Horticulturists

The patron of horticulturists, outside his hospice Fiacre ploughed a very fertile garden, with only his walking stick.

Hemorrhoids

It is said that Fiacre became the patron of hemorrhoid sufferers after taxi-drivers began to suffer from the complaint, after sitting down for so many hours at a time.

Now a Protestant might almost envy the Catholic who is a syphilitic and hemorrhoidal taxi driver who dabbles in horticulture. He can get all his prayers interceded for by just one patron saint! Imagine the money saved on candles alone!

Do not imagine that we "Protestants" have anything in common with this morass of superstition. It's downright embarassing to know that people actually believe this bilge.

[ears_to_hear]

Ahh The Gods must be crazy, required viewing in my anthropology class ,.

[ears_to_hear]

Now a Protestant might almost envy the Catholic who is a syphilitic and hemorrhoidal taxi driver who dabbles in horticulture. He can get all his prayers interceded for by just one patron saint! Imagine the money saved on candles alone!
Do not imagine that we "Protestants" have anything in common with this morass of superstition. It's downright embarassing to know that people actually believe this bilge.

The real embarrassment is that it still goes on today .