Publishing Armageddon

American Vision ^ | 7/24/2006 | Gary DeMar

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The whole world is the object of Christ's salvation. All those who have been predestined to eternal life will be saved. And this will ultimately be a great multitude which no man can number. (Rev. 7:9)

Amen! The Gospel will be victorious.

But a sure way to try and nullify that victory is to disbelieve it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Certainly Jesus will return someday -- in victory.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***There is enough "name calling" on both sides. I was just accused of being on the "other side" (i.e., not on God's side).***

Can't we all just (sob) get along?

[P-Marlowe]

This is precisely what the early Christians did in AD70 just before Rome sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.

And Jesus came back and we're all living in paradise.

[Blogger]

Seems a tad overrated. :) [It's a joke, folks]

[nmh]

"Not only smug, but joyful when they see another Christian being tarred -- even though they probably haven't read that Christian's work to begin with. Walvrood is probably one of the better ones out there."

Yeah, real "Christian" of them to impugn a Bible based Christian. It's easier to pile on the bandwagon ... when they do say something, the substance is clearly absent. It's almost humorous.

[nmh]

"Speaking of smug, tell me what you know about church history and the eschatological viewpoints known as amillennialism and postmillenialism. Bonus points awarded, if you can do so without referring to the works of Hal Lindsey or Dave Hunt."

if you can't comprehend the topic of this thread, the Bible and prophetic events happening NOW, why would I waste my time talking about "church history" of all things!
LOL!

Yes, I'm VERY familiar with both amillennialism and postmillenialism. From what I've stated you should be able to figure out what I am. I really don't know what Hal Lindsey or Dave Hunt have to do with this thread.

Is it possible for you to focus on the topic of this thread - Walvoord? Why topic switch? Is it because you just like to crucify people for the sport of it but can't back up your position with specifics??

No, I don't feel even remotely compelled to write volumes on line about Hal or Dave, church history, amillennialism or even postmillenialism - even with the idiotic lure of "bonus points"! I prefer to remain on topic. I suggest you do the same instead of this silliness.

[nmh]

"Walvoord fell into the same trap as other pop prophecy types like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith. He became mesmerized by the events in the Middle East and allowed that to color his scholarship. He ended up denying the old school/Scofield/Chafer/Dallas view of dispensational prophecy which taught there where would be no identifiable events prior to the rapture of the church." Really? "NO identifiable events prior to the rapture of the church"?

LOL!!!

Perhaps you should spend you time more wisely. Read the Bible before you post such nonsense. Also try READING what Walvoord has written. It is NOT at all what you are claiming.

[nmh]

So ya think we're under the 1000 year reign of Christ NOW?

Yeah, it's just peachy out there ... .

[P-Marlowe]

[It's a joke, folks]

Those who require such a disclaimer are those who have no sense of humor. They know who they are... And they're not laughing.

[Gamecock]

***We did not obliterate or replace the vine. The vine is still there.***

I didn't say that. I'm sayint that the passage in question is about us.

[TomSmedley]

Science fiction? Is that where you obtain your eschatology from?

You missed my whole point.

Why preach the failure of the gospel as good news? Only reason I can figure -- to excuse one's one mediocrity and failures in life. How long has it been since Christianity produced a Bach, Milton, or Michaelangelo?

Once upon a time, Christianity inspired greatness. Christian men created works of art, legal systems, and cathedrals that bless people centuries later.

So do you hold Bach and Handel in contempt? After all, they stole time from passing out tracts to master difficult genres of music. Bach could have been preaching on street corners, instead of having 20 children, and writing his two and three part inventions as teaching devices. He was so successful as a father that the next generation thought that Charles Philip Emmanuel was "the greaet Bach."

But old Johanne Sebastian did not labor under your sense of limited time and the ultimate futility of his work.

[TomSmedley]

So ya think we're under the 1000 year reign of Christ NOW?

Yeah, it's just peachy out there ..

Well, it's obvious to me that I did not instantly and totally transform my personality upon my conversion, and become instantly sinless, and incapable of sinning. Therefore, my conversion must not have been real, right? If something doesn't happen instantly, you see, it didn't really happen. After all, everyone knows that seeds immediately turn into mature crops the minute you plant them. Babies are born minutes after the parents make love, right? And babies turn into adults the minute after they are born.

After all, if something doesn't happen instantly, it doesn't really happen.

Have you no memory of growing up under the shadow of the bomb? And the certainty of the global triumph of communism, wherein the professional politicians in this country made every effort to come to terms with the anticipated "winners" ahead of time? Yet who views communism as a global threat today?

Let's look at the numbers again.

• as of 2,000 ad, our population is growing three times as fast as that of the general population.
• 70% of the gospel's progress has been since 1900.
• 70% of that, since 1945.
• 70% of that, since 1996
• in 1900, 0% of Koreans were Christians.
• in 1986, that number was up to 20%.
• in 2000, it's 40% -- including 11 of the 12 largest churches in the world.
• the kurdish area of iraq has entire towns full of converts from islam.
• more iranians have come to Christ since 1988 than the 1,000 years before.
• africa went from single-digits at the turn of the last century to a bit over half at present.

I'm really sorry that isn't good enough or fast enough for you. Tell you what -- you sit and pout and mope and tell us how God has turned His back upon this world, and consigned it to Satan now, and "antichrist" "any day now." Those of us who know our God's grace and power will see what we can do to get a piece of the action, and work with Him to defeat His enemies.

[topcat54]

So ya think we're under the 1000 year reign of Christ NOW?

Yeah, it's just peachy out there ... .

Well, based on the Scripture and not my personal "feelings", the answer is "yes".

Those who have a "peachy" view of the millennium are certainly not getting that from the Bible.

Reading Rev. 20 carefully one finds that there are but two conditions for the "thousand years"; 1) Satan is bound from deceiving the nations, and 2) the saints are reigning with Christ.

I would content that both of those conditions are presently true. Satan is bound (cf. Matt. 12:28,29), and the saints are reigning (1 Cor. 15:25; Eph. 2:6).

If Satan were not bound the gospel would still be confined to a small group of people physically situated in the Middle East, and not going out into all the world with great success over the last 2000 years. Even Paul had the confidence in his world day to proclaim the success of the gospel advance. "which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;" (Col. 1:5,6) Paul and the other NT writters certainly had a success-oriented view of Christ's reign and the advance of His kingdom.

The problem most people get into is they read too much of their own biases into their version of the millennium. For example, note that Rev. 20 does not say that Christ is reigning physically on the earth during this period of time. Lots of folks just assume He is on the earth, and that things are just "peachy".

If you immerse yourself in the doom-and-gloom theology of most pop prophecy preachers today you will miss the positive view the Scripture paints for the future of all the earth.

[topcat54]

And Jesus came back and we're all living in paradise.

Just curious, but would you describe the popular dispensational, premil version of the "thousand years" as "paradise"?

Just trying to get our definitions straight.

"And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.' " (Luke 23:43)

[TomSmedley]

If you immerse yourself in the doom-and-gloom theology of most pop prophecy preachers today you will miss the positive view the Scripture paints for the future of all the earth.

People, including those with a doctrinal commitment to the failure of the gospel and the global triumph of evil, have reasons for what they believe. An unbelieving psychologist who befriended and studied a number of apocalyptic folks over the course of several years found a common denominator -- great and unresolved emotional pain. Projecting the pain and turmoil within against an imaginary screen of global dimensions is a technique for putting the pain "out there" so that Someone Else can deal with it "real soon now."

The severe emotional backlash against the gospel of God's hopeful kingdom indicates that we are not dealing with a mere intellectual disagreement. The apocalyptics have a personal vested interest in the defeat of God's Kingdom, as it validates/excuses the defeat in their own lives.

Rush Limbaugh refuses to talk with "conspiracy theorists." They are losers, who are looking for "someone else" -- some omnipotent band of conspirators -- to blame for their own mediocrity.

I have my reasons, too, for my beliefs. A God who loved me enough to give His Son for my redemption loved me too much to let me off the hook. Too much to let me wallow in cynical mediocrity. This God opened my eyes to see His Word with fresh eyes -- and my life, family, and vocaction were all transformed by a fresh infusion of hope, grace, and stamina. Ultimately, the best "arguement" we can offer the apocalyptics is prayer for their enlightenment. Although men do love to hide in darkness, and in dark visions ... we have to call upon the more power love of God.

[Blogger]

I would describe it as the millenial reign. Paradise was a holding place for the Old Testament Saints prior to the crucifixion.

[Blogger]

I have a reason too. Scripture.

If I were you, I would reexamine my "optimism." Scripture nowhere says things are going to get better and better and then Jesus comes. Rather it says men shall wax worse and worse.

The way you are coming off on this thread is that you think you have found this secret and are taking great delight in maligning anyone who doesn't agree with you, as if they have some emotional illness. Check your spirit, sir. Jesus might rebuke his opponents, but He didn't belittle them or mock them with the kind of spirit you are exhibiting.

[topcat54]

"Unfortunately, the prevailing evangelical mind-set today is dispensationally afflicted. Consequently, it is fundamentally pessimistic regarding the progress of contemporary history. Around the turn of the century, the influential dispensationalist R. A. Torrey summarized the wish of developing dispensationalism. He declared: “The darker the night gets, the lighter my heart gets.”

"Torrey stated this on the basis of his eschatology of despair. His dispensationalism saw the future in the hands of an approaching personal Antichrist, who would arise in the looming Great Tribulation. His hope, his delight, his wish was for the “imminent” Return of Christ. He felt these horrible events would set the stage for and thereby hasten the Lord’s Return. In his view, the worse things became, the sooner Jesus would come. Millions of Christians hold his view today. Because of this, this century, which has witnessed the triumph of dispensationalism among evangelicals, has also witnessed the triumph of humanism in culture at large. There is a measure of cause-and-effect here. As Christians retreat from culture in anticipation of society’s collapse, humanism has been sucked into the void left by Christianity’s leadership absence."

Postmillennialism: Wishful Thinking or Certain Hope? by Ken Gentry

Dispensationalism is not a product of the protestant reformation. The reformation was based on a true hope that Christ's kingdom would triumph over the forces of darkness, both within the church and without.

The concept of the "bless hope" has been twisted by dispensationalists from the simple fact that Christ will return in judgment and triumph, to the defeatist view that as thinmgs deteriorate around me Christ will return to snatch me away so that Satan can torment those remaining until Christ really returns to kinda put down Satan sort of until the end of their literalist millennium.

[P-Marlowe]

Did Jesus return with clouds and did every eye see him in 70 AD? I can't seem to find any eyewitness accounts of that event in any scriptural or historical documents. Perhaps I missed something.