Replies

***However, if you change how you worship does that water down the TRUTH. If you attract a great many "lookers" the odds on finding a real seeker increases.***

It might surprise you that I have not once said that church should "look" a certain way. I'm certain everyone reading my posts thinks I believe the pastor should be in robes, music should by pipe organ, and everyone should be in suits or dresses.

The Presbyterian Church in America has a wide variety of looks. Yes there are tightly scripted liturgical services, we have pastors in short sleeves and no tie, others in suits.

We have organs and we have praise bands. We have small country churches, we have megachurches.

We place a strong emphasis on evangelism. A lack of Evangelism is one one reason we left the Presbyterian Church (USA) back in '73. Per capita we have more foreign missionaries in the field than the Southern Baptists, and we all know how much they love missions work.

The one thing that I have never heard at any PCA church in which I have been a member is "How do we make Sunday morning more appealing to the seeker." The discussion is how do we bring glory to God in our worship. When we bring glory to God in our worship, God will bring us true seekers. I think that is evidenced in a couple of different ways:

-by the fact that if we continue on our current growth trajectory, we anticipate having 1,000,000 members sometime in the 2020s. (We started with 40,000 in 73)
-We have the sixth largest seminary in the country. We are graduating more M.Divs than we have churches.
-We are planting 2-3 churches every 2 months
-Our campus ministries are growing

What does that look like at a local church? We were part of a church plant in 2002. The Gamecock family was one of the first six families. When we left in 2004 because the Army told us to, there were almost 200 members. I visited this past summer and there are over 300. Monthly, there are new Baptisms, new members. There is no seeker sensitive nonsense. The sermons are hard as woodpecker lips. The music is piano, guitar, brass, and a fiddle (It's in Texas, OK?) Most of the songs are hymns that have been rearranged by our denominations college students.

As for the demographics, there are multimillionaire business men, and taxi drivers. Grocery stock boys and physicians. Collage students and retirees. Young families and empty nester's. Whites, Blacks and Hispanics. Military and civilians. Army and Air Force. Some people dance, some don't. Some have their hands in the air, some don't. Some are in suits, some are in shorts and flip flops.(gasp!)

Church growth experts say move to the suburbs where the people live. This church is in the middle of a large city and people drive 30 minutes from nearby towns and from all parts of the city to worship.

We strive to make our focus praising God, and trust him to provide for the Church growth.

To God alone goes the Glory. Not modern church growth theory that panders to the culture.

I'm pinging blue-duncan and xzins to your excellent post #60. I hope they read it.

To God alone goes the Glory. Not modern church growth theory that panders to the culture.

Amen.

While God can and does reside wherever He pleases, my experience in mega-churches left me reeling.

As I've said before, I have relatives in a very famous "mega-church" and I've attended Sunday services there. The heart of the service is always someone coming up and delivering a wrenching tale of debauchery and sin until they cleaned up their act. One time a cute 20-year-old blonde in high heels, shorts and halter top, spent 35 minutes detailing how she went from prostitution, heroin addiction, crystal meth addiction, four abortions and a broken jaw (?) to cleaner living through Christ.

Our kids were in the "audience" and I was appalled this X-rated theater was playing out in front of hundreds of kids.

They can say all they want that they are preaching God's word, but I think they're fooling themselves and simply titillating a large group of people who come to church on Sunday in order to attend the weekly programs -- AA, Weight-Watchers, "Divorced Partners, Three Kids and Two Dogs" (which alternates Tuesdays with "Divorced Partners, Two Kids and Three Dogs) and the Wednesday night beading class.

The real point here is not that these programs are not good and helpful in and of themselves. The real point is that for one crummy hour a week we should be able to sit our frazzled butts down and hear a solid sermon based on Scripture about God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I think if we concentrated more on His activities, our own would be elevated without needing to reschedule our Blackberries.

One hour a week.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" -- Matthew 15:9.

What does that look like at a local church? We were part of a church plant in 2002. The Gamecock family was one of the first six families. When we left in 2004 because the Army told us to, there were almost 200 members. I visited this past summer and there are over 300. Monthly, there are new Baptisms, new members. There is no seeker sensitive nonsense. The sermons are hard as woodpecker lips. The music is piano, guitar, brass, and a fiddle (It's in Texas, OK?) Most of the songs are hymns that have been rearranged by our denominations college students.

As for the demographics, there are multimillionaire business men, and taxi drivers. Grocery stock boys and physicians. Collage students and retirees. Young families and empty nester's. Whites, Blacks and Hispanics. Military and civilians. Army and Air Force. Some people dance, some don't. Some have their hands in the air, some don't. Some are in suits, some are in shorts and flip flops.(gasp!)

This is a guess - educated, I think - but this works because the PCA doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's some good ideas in church growth - specifically, to make sure your traditions that aren't accessible to a modern 21st century audience (e.g. styles of music, service formats, Bible translations, etc.) don't get in the way of the message.

That's what the PCA does right, that's what Bethlehem Baptist does right. The problem is that "church growth" is a bumper-sticker slogan. Of course they have good ideas - and some bad ones.